300tdi on veg oil?

[ejparrott]

You are allowed to use 2500litres of veg oil per year without paying fuel duty, however, you must still pay the 20% VAT rate on the veg oil. You can use more than 2500lt of veg oil per year if you want, provided you fill in the appropriate forms, keep records, pay the duty and the VAT every month.

Fuel duty and VAT are 2 different things, duty being the greatest part.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

I had always known Glycerol as the alcohol version of a Glycerine molecule. However, according to Google, it seems I'm in the minority. However, I'm not a chemist so I can't exactly speak with definitive authority!

I'm pretty fuzzy on the exact mechanism of the reaction, however, as far as I understand it the alcohol groups are broken from the methanol and the remaining CH3 completes the ester chains. The -oh groups that are floating around bond with the bit that was holding the esters together to create the glycerol molecule.

So you start with an alcohol and an ester, and finish with an alcohol and shorter esters.

I think. Maybe.

Yes, it does seem to be a common misconception that veg oil and biodiesel are one and the same - and they most certainly are not interchangeable! Unfortunately, with very little in the way of regulation for commercial manufacturers, some think it's ok just to mix a few chemicals in a bucket and call it biodiesel too. No wonder it's got itself a bad name! (although I don't mind that as it means more oil for me!)

[CwazyWabbit]

You are allowed to use 2500litres of veg oil per year without paying fuel duty, however, you must still pay the 20% VAT rate on the veg oil. You can use more than 2500lt of veg oil per year if you want, provided you fill in the appropriate forms, keep records, pay the duty and the VAT every month.

Fuel duty and VAT are 2 different things, duty being the greatest part.

If using waste veg oil instead of new would the vat be payable on the price paid for the waste? ie if waste was free then no VAT?

[ejparrott]

err..I'll have to look that one up to be sure, not 100% on the regs about using waste oil, at this time I've no intention of using it due to the amount of work necessary to filter and de-water it before use, so I concentrate on understanding the rules about bio and new veg oil...I'll look it up when I get chance, could phone HMRC again too.

[CwazyWabbit]

I was just curious about it, so don't worry if you don't know already I agree the WVO route does seem like hard work.

[Boydie]

Maybe someone should clarify that Biodiesel and veg oil are quite different.

Biodiesel is veg oil that has been titrated to remove glycerine and will therefore have a viscosity similar to Derv. No ill effects should therefore be expected except eventual seal problems on older equipment. Viton seals are needed.

Veg oil on the other hand, has glycerine still in it and will require to be heated before its viscosity becomes close to that of Derv. If you use veg oil at ambient temperatures you are probably putting quite a strain on your IP etc and it is not really recommended. If you are in the tropics its probably no problem but in cooler climates you are gambling. People who use it regularly mostly use a two tank system, starting and stopping on Derv, switching over to veg when its warmed up to about 60 C. Some people burn waste vegetable oil using a two tank system which is quite risky and requires a good source of trustable oil and it needs to be well filtered (at least to 5 micron) and to have water removed. Its a messy process and few do it for very long.

The 200 and 300tdi engines should run well on any heated veg oil system and bio should be interchangeable with derv. Watch out for leaking seals though.

Another comment might be that veg oil and bio have better lubricating qualities than almost sulphur free derv and therefore adding a little to each tankful should be benificial to injector equipment.

Steve

An easier way to increase lube is to add 2 stroke oil into your tank of diesel, I do and it works wonders

[Igol]

Looked at the DIY biodiesel route a while ago, process is pretty simple and folk are buying waste glycerol around here, the only problem I found was the methonol required, you can get it easily enough with no restrictions, but generally only in an IBC which seemed a tad too much to keep in the yard.

So running 50/50 svo right now.

[cackshifter]

You are allowed to use 2500litres of veg oil per year without paying fuel duty, however, you must still pay the 20% VAT rate on the veg oil. You can use more than 2500lt of veg oil per year if you want, provided you fill in the appropriate forms, keep records, pay the duty and the VAT every month.

Fuel duty and VAT are 2 different things, duty being the greatest part.

Forgive my asking but are you sure about the VAT? I was under the (maybe mistaken I freely admit) impression it was waived if you weren't VAT registered. And monthly payments? You normally pay VAT quarterly unless it's huge amounts. Do you have to be VAT registered to use veg oil then? I know you have to record what you do - litres and dates, assuming under 2500 litres per annum, http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P274_35173 see 4.9.1 , this is for duty,

but there seems no requirement to hold what is paid for the oil or how much VAT has been paid on the oil. Can you please point me to some HMRC links specifically re the VAT, as I am struggling to find any; this link ..http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=3220 gives a bit more info on it.

I'm contemplating using some veg oil in a 300tdi, mainly to clean the fuel system, but have no wish to rub hmrc up the wrong way. Equally I have no experience of paying VAT unless registered.

Nigel

[ejparrott]

You don't have to be VAT registered in the same way as a company to use veg oil as a fuel no, there is a form you fill in and submit with reciepts for purchase of oil, which at this minute I can't find again!

Under article 4.2.1 you will see that if you use less than 2500l, you are an excempt producer, and don't therefore need to account for duty. If you look here at Biomotors http://www.biomotors.../fuel-duty.html the first paragraph says, veg oil no longer consider food stuff pay VAT. If you go to a shop and buy veg oil, when you look at the recipet you will see the 'VAT total' line will be 0, veg oil used for cooking is zero rated for VAT.

If you want to clean your system out at this time of year, you'd be better off buying 20l of bio from a filling station - get a reciept from them stating the value of fuel bought (I always add the litres and £/l aswell for self interest) and carry that in the motor. I have a stack of reciepts I always carry. As I attend some big rallies over the year, I often get my tank dipped, although mainly they're only interested in hunting out the red diesel users. This http://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/outlets.htm is a basic list of bio outlets in the uk.

I can find you more information if you want, but it'll have to wait until next week, little busy right now, sorry

[cackshifter]

You don't have to be VAT registered in the same way as a company to use veg oil as a fuel no, there is a form you fill in and submit with reciepts for purchase of oil, which at this minute I can't find again!

Under article 4.2.1 you will see that if you use less than 2500l, you are an excempt producer, and don't therefore need to account for duty. If you look here at Biomotors http://www.biomotors.../fuel-duty.html the first paragraph says, veg oil no longer consider food stuff pay VAT. If you go to a shop and buy veg oil, when you look at the recipet you will see the 'VAT total' line will be 0, veg oil used for cooking is zero rated for VAT.

If you want to clean your system out at this time of year, you'd be better off buying 20l of bio from a filling station - get a reciept from them stating the value of fuel bought (I always add the litres and £/l aswell for self interest) and carry that in the motor. I have a stack of reciepts I always carry. As I attend some big rallies over the year, I often get my tank dipped, although mainly they're only interested in hunting out the red diesel users. This http://www.biodiesel....uk/outlets.htm is a basic list of bio outlets in the uk.

I can find you more information if you want, but it'll have to wait until next week, little busy right now, sorry

Thanks for that response, sorry I wasn't trying to get you to do my running round but I was keen to get to the bottom of it, as like you I don't want to get on the wrong side of HMRC. They tend to have long memories and I'd sooner avoid it if at all possible by staying within the law. I am the sort of person that gets stopped just after the bulb has blown, I can never get away with anything. But VAT would have a big impact on whether veg oil is worth using. Having looked into it a bit re cleaning, it seems worth finding out more. Re bio fuel - if only... there are 2 stockists near us; the last time I looked one was out of stock, the other had given up, hence veg looked good

[Les Henson]

You are allowed to use 2500litres of veg oil per year without paying fuel duty, however, you must still pay the 20% VAT rate on

the veg oil.

'Scuse my ignorance, but if you buy new veg oil, don't you pay 20% VAT on it when you buy it or are you just referring to waste oil?

Could be missing something here

Les.

[CwazyWabbit]

'Scuse my ignorance, but if you buy new veg oil, don't you pay 20% VAT on it when you buy it or are you just referring to waste oil?

Could be missing something here

Les.

New veg oil is classed as a food stuff so attracts 0% vat for it's intended purpose of cooking food.... once you stick it in your tank it becomes a fuel and liable for vat ..... it seems from what has been said it's only the duty that is waived on first 2500l used so you should be sending off some vat to the big man if you are running on SVO

[cackshifter]

Not sure how this can be enforced though - maybe tank dipping, but equally there are precedents for waiving VAT, eg if a small adult buys children's clothing (zero VAT) you don't get VAT inspectors stopping them and charging them VAT as it's an adult wearing it; they just let it go. I can't see how you pay it if you aren't VAT registered; I have looked round and can't find out how you might go about it. It might open some other cans of worms, eg the converse, if you buy something and pay 20% VAT but use it for a nominally zero rated purpose, you should then be able to reclaim it. I can imagaine HMRC would choke on the volume of paperwork. Nigel

[coachman]

as above... r plate disco 300tdi.... i've sprodically stuck the odd 5l tub of veg oil in the tank when its been on offer at supermarkets for 4.50 for 5l etc etc. with no ill effects so far.

been wondering about running it more permenantly on new vag oil??

anyone else doing this? been reading up on heated fuel filters and the like to prevent waxing etc.

so... people doing it, whats your vehicle set up and overhead costs..... more than anything advice??

Hello fellow minded person ,try Morrisons ,they sre selling 2x4ltrs for £4 offer ( Rothwell Nr Leeds ) I have also run my Freelander td4 on central heating oil ,I first aked the question of the different explosive temperatures between central heating oil and diesel and the central heating oil has a lower temperature there fore by my reckonoing i WOULD NOT DAMAGE THE ENGINE BY TOO HIGH AN OPERATING TEMP . I also have /do use veg oil but as a mix with diesel ( my test method was to put 2 samples in large glass jars and watch the flow charectoristics in different btemperatures and then to mix 50/50 and watch the same , I found there to be no differences ,but not being a scientist I may be wrong ,all I know is that it worked for me ) ( foot note )maybe but poor men have poor ways sayeth Mr Lawson .

[BogMonster]

I have also run my Freelander td4 on central heating oil ,I first aked the question of the different explosive temperatures between central heating oil and diesel and the central heating oil has a lower temperature there fore by my reckonoing i WOULD NOT DAMAGE THE ENGINE BY TOO HIGH AN OPERATING TEMP .

Very bad idea IMHO!

What I think you call central heating oil in that country is, more or less, what we call kerosene here. It has much less in the way of lubricating properties than diesel (in simple terms it's less oily) and will bugger up injectors and fuel pump in fairly short order if you use it all the time. I'm not sure about the exhaust gas temps but I wouldn't use it simply because it will wreck the injection system. Land Rover say absolutely no to using kero/avtur or anything similar, and will scrap the warranty on anything that uses it.

Older engines (Tdis etc) are slightly more tolerant, modern common rail engines much less so as they are built to finer tolerances to generate the higher injection pressures and a lack of lubrication is much more serious. Not recommended.

[cackshifter]

Used to be 2 types of heating oil here - one as you say (I think 28 secs ) was effectively kerosene; the other for pressure jet boilers (I think 35 secs) was very similar to diesel.