pugwash Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 If you had two winches with similer performance curves what would you do if: One ran at 10,500lb pull and 50ft/min under load? one ran at 12,500lb pull but 30ft/min under load? which would you put at the front and which at the rear? these are hydraulic winches before anyone starts saying that one will slow before the other- they will either both be running at full speed- or be stalled (at least that's what i currently beleive from those in the know) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Jim my old son ……….. your gonna need to explain more …………. ……….. the winch capacities look like MM figures to me ……… and if you looked a the Hydro Motor specs from the US MM website to calculate your speeds from the pump data …….. then you’re in for a surprise ……. tell me more…… Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 Jim my old son ……….. your gonna need to explain more …………. ……….. the winch capacities look like MM figures to me ……… and if you looked a the Hydro Motor specs from the US MM website to calculate your speeds from the pump data …….. then you’re in for a surprise ……. tell me more……Ian thanks ian, ignore the figures mate- they are only for comparison purposes! Although i don't really know what the performance of the winch will be! if i give you some figures do you fancy working it all for me? Pump is a 22.5 cc/rev with a max pressure of 190 (2750 psi?) Bar and a max speed of 2800 rpm which i work out is 63l/min or 31l/min at normal rev ranges (you might want to check my calculations!) Spool block has enough capacity manage these flows and pressures- PRV set to 2250 Winch is a MM H12 two speed with a white hydraulics winch motor- can't work out the flow from the data i have- but i think the max pressure is 2250 psi and the rpm at max flow is around the 450-600 rpm (i am extrapolating here). i am going to assume that the max flow of the pump outweighs the max flow of the motor! is this enough information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Yes, that’s good info ……….. I will work out some numbers when I get back from driving the rabbit shoot around the farm tonight ………… using my truck so the super swamper TSL’s are going to get a testing ………….. Can you post up what is written on the motor plate ? should be something like 200200A1102CAAAA I’ll post up later Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Damn its raining ………… I’ll go up to the farm later Pump……….. max flow @1000rpm = 22.5L/min………… max flow@2800rpm = 63L/min Motor (it should be a 200 series, unless it’s a direct import or an early import) Continuous Flow = 61L/min ……. Max Flow= = 75L/Min Max Torque 394Nm …………@1750psi …….. remember that is at 1:1 Absolute max motor psi is 2250 but the manufacturer never gives the torque at this figure ……….just interpolate ………… one should never run the motor at max flow coinciding with max pressure…….. so the manufacturer says. The rpm @ 61L/min = 296 @ 750psi ……… it drops by 10rpm at 1750psi ….. nothing that will be noticeable The max rpm is 370 when flowing 76L/min The rest is easy ………….it runs out at just a tad slower than mine (my pump flows a little more (29L/Min) So…… the drum is 2.5ins diameter (1st layer) so 1 RPM of the drum is 7.8ins. The MM is 6:1 so therefore the absolute Max line speed (in ft/min) at full load calculates out as ((296/6)*7.8)/12 = 32ft/min. The above calc ignores the rope diameter. By the time you get up to the third layer the winch will be doing over 40ft/min In high gear (respool mode) the MM operates at 1:1 so the Max line speed will be (296*7.8)/12 = 192 ft/min. Believe me Jim, 32ft/Min at full load is plenty fast …….. and respool at 192 ft/Min is just not usable. I’ve done some testing with mine ……….. I doubt that I will ever use it in anger at full speed. Compare the above to the 8274-50 figures, Zero Load = 73.4 ft/Min 2000lbs = 22 ft/Min 4000lbs = 12 ft/min 6000lbs = 9.5 ft/min 8000lbs = 6.1 ft/min 10000lbs = winch stalled and burnt out motor. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Ian is the father of New Age Hydraulic Winching - bow down before him and weep (especially if you have a crappy electric winch that you spent loads on to get to be a tiny bit faster). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Ian is the father of New Age Hydraulic Winching - bow down before him and weep (especially if you have a crappy electric winch that you spent loads on to get to be a tiny bit faster). 2000lbs = 22 ft/Min4000lbs = 12 ft/min 6000lbs = 9.5 ft/min 8000lbs = 6.1 ft/min 10000lbs = winch stalled and burnt out motor. 10001 lbs = PTO powered MileMarker saves the day and removes stuck LR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I could only recommend electric winches personally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 I could only recommend electric winches personally well you better be giving me that funny crank driven thing you have then. not that it's very good of course- probably only worth scrap i reckon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 And in answer to your question If nothing else chnages then fit the MOST POWERFULL to the front the lower power at the back, I think that on the front you wnat the most powerfull as you may often pull yourself further into and then out , but on the back you tend normally (not always) to REMOVE yourself from what you have got into, or basically use the winch as a helper for positioing Nige PS Jez - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Another fine thread I would have thought the faster one on the front on the basis that you will use that the most often, and the slower one on the back (regardless of whether it is more powerful or not) on the basis that you can't see a hell of a lot going backwards, and if you are using it for lowering out then you want it slower not faster... ? just my 2p... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Steve, So what you are saying is speed is more important than power ? Wash your mouth out now young man, or fit anice quick electric winch - say a X6 Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 How about the nice little portable towball electric winch I have got that claims a rolling load capacity of 15000kg.....? Mmm rolling on greased teflon ball bearings on an ice rink perhaps No what I was saying is that if you are going to winch into something you can't see behind you, you might as well do it a bit slower and cause less damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangerover Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I'd put the more powerfull one up front as its the one you are more likely to use. But I would not use 2 hydraulic winchs... reason.... what if you have a mechanical failure and have no engine ? if one is electric e.g. the rear, you have a chance of pulling your self out of trouble even if say flood your engine with water ! just my view ! I have a Husky on the front of my Disco... slow but oh biy can it pull for a long time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 i think Jim is working around the two mechanical wnich point!!!!! All this ongoing work Jim but no motor to look at yet -s twin mechanical/hydraulic winches, portals, whats next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 i think Jim is working around the two mechanical wnich point!!!!!All this ongoing work Jim but no motor to look at yet -s twin mechanical/hydraulic winches, portals, whats next? one day i might even buy a vehicle to fit these random parts to! it's all a bit unknown at the moment anyway- no idea what i am doing or when- just buying bargains as they appear according to some wish list that i have in my head. one day i'll get something finished........................................................................ ..........................................................................one day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Theres no reason why a twin hydro winch setup cant get you out of poop IF you managed to stop the engine (Im still yet to drown but I'm gonna keep trying ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 running both hydraulic and electric systems doesn't make a great deal of sense, you need two complete systems, when the hydraulic system is easily expandable for two winches. Gettin round the no-engine problem is easy with an electric pump, it might not be as fast as an engine driven pump (I've seen that video of Petal's winch) but it will get you out of trouble, eventually. Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 and its only a £20 add on Luke - bless the mighty Eblag B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b101uk Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 "If you had two winches with similer performance curves what would you do if: One ran at 10,500lb pull and 50ft/min under load? one ran at 12,500lb pull but 30ft/min under load?" "32ft/Min at full load" err guys you canot have a winch that has 100% line pull at any other speed than 0ft/min, as 100% pull is at stall speed or 0HP, as the full HP quotant has to be converted in to torque, flow = HP = line speed, preshur = torque = line pull 1HP = 550lb/ft/sec or 33000lb/ft/min of work, e.g. 550lb @ 1ft a second = 1hp, 1lb @ 550ft a second = 1hp, 275lb @ 275ft a second = 1hp, etc, etc, etc. also remember you canot calculate the true torque of a hydraulic motor unless you know the preshur difrence from the input and output ports (i.e. preshur drop in the return line) b101uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 marvellous!!! now i just need to find the ££££ for the PTO, pump and winch to start the job !!! grrrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 close but not quite 100% rated pull doesnt mean stall speed pressure drop figures arent necessary - look up the performance graphs of the pump and motor, hydraulics manufauturers tend to be helpful like that reference that to the pressure guage in the system or for a stall rating factor in the PRV setting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Jez, Please stop this. Your letting experience and knowledge get involved in a post answer. You''ll be saying next how 303s are better than LR axles - please get a grip on yourself Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Sorry Nige, "leccy winches and Simex are wonderful" are you going to make me stand in the corner again? its dark............. and I think theres something living under the rack....... oh thats Fridge thats ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Sorry Nige, "leccy winches and Simex are wonderful" are you going to make me stand in the corner again? its dark............. and I think theres something living under the rack....... oh thats Fridge thats ok Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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