Team Idris Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 My left hand isn't free all the time but my left leg is! So I'm trying an experiment with my redundant clutch pedal and a friend (bought SH this morning). I'm hoping to get the CNC/milner fiddle brake cylinders where the old clutch master cylinder was. But without damaging or modding them so they can be reverted back to hand lever if this doesn't work. The hand levers are about 10:1 and the pedals 5:1. http://s146.photobucket.com/user/teamidris/media/2013FiddleBrakes1_zpsb1a6eea9.jpg.html'> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Looking good, should work fine, the Yanks run a system similar. Could you not use SII mastercylinders? usaually a cheap way of making fiddlebrakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 I'm not sure what goes on internally on an S3 master cylinder over the milner unit? And the milner has one input, so it should be simpler to fit. But really the design came the other way around from; "these are hard to pull, and I need my hand free". Then I thought about putting foot pads on the milner fiddle brake set. But then I decided that was cruel, with the milner's being so nicely chromed/anodised The decider was folk doing so well at the weekend trial with servo-assist fiddles, where mine have never been amazing. And the odd times I have needed to winch and fiddle brake at the same time. So this looks a step toward the right solution. Favorite trialer sucess story seems to be two car master cylinder servo units between the seats. But you do need the extra pair of calipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The best one I ever saw was someone who had replumbed the system with one circuit on the left and one on the right. Each had an on off solenoid valve by the servo. By using the indicator stalk they could brake just the left or right. It turned like a tank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Does the result have to be road-legal? I know a couple of 'triallers' with 1950s/1960s cars who contest in the equivalent of RTV-events who've had 'fiddle-brakes' raise the ire of zealous MoT-testers; same goes for the "hydraulic handbrake" historic-rally people with their Mk1/Mk2 Escorts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The best one I ever saw was someone who had replumbed the system with one circuit on the left and one on the right. Each had an on off solenoid valve by the servo. By using the indicator stalk they could brake just the left or right. It turned like a tank!If we are talking about the same car Al, it is a lightweight built by Stuart martin from emorc, He used a standard servo assisted master cylinder, piped each side of the car separately, each side of the system had its own electric line lock activated from the indicator switch. All he used to do was quickly stab the brakes and flick the indicator on to lock the fluid in that side. When he got the hang of it, it would turn in its own length with a bit of throttle. Very impressive to watch! Does the result have to be road-legal?I know a couple of 'triallers' with 1950s/1960s cars who contest in the equivalent of RTV-events who've had 'fiddle-brakes' raise the ire of zealous MoT-testers; same goes for the "hydraulic handbrake" historic-rally people with their Mk1/Mk2 Escorts. I'm pretty certain that the wording of the mot manual has been changed, so that a mechanical link is no longer required.Doesn't mean a hydro hand brake is legal but I'm almost certain it isn't a mot failure either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Milner fiddle brakes are definately an MOT killer Don't know why, engineeringly they are just a T piece if not operated. I've gone away from left/right tractor brakes as you loose the diff locks. At the moment I can cut-in and drive cross-axeled with the front locker in. It looks to us that the fiddle brakes work better with the front locked, as the front wheels fighting each other makes them break-traction earlier? Tonight I folded a bit of sheet steel channel as a cylinder support bracket. I need a start-point before I CAD and stamp a bracket. I'm still working on the leverage. Do I go with 5:1 (easy access) or drill new pivot points (more pressure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Milner fiddle brakes are definately an MOT killer Don't know why, engineeringly they are just a T piece if not operated. As long as the cylinder doesn't leak, I would happily pass them. It is no different than a brake proportioning valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 That's the one Dan! It certainly out turned the oil tanker like range rover! BTW do you want to MOT the range rover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Do I go with 5:1 (easy access) or drill new pivot points (more pressure). I would guess that unless you are disproportionately strong in the upper body that 5:1 would be fine with your legs if 10:1 was OK with your arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Yep, I think that's fair. I was only concearned because I couldn't stop the wheel by hand. But how far away from not stopping it am I .........? I'm guessing at least 3 times more push with my leg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heath robinson Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The new audis have an electric handbrake (which is annoying as all hell for steep hillstarts. You need to have your foot on the brake to release it!) which I believe is just a switch triggering the ABS circuit. definitely not a direct mechanical linkage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 That's the one Dan! It certainly out turned the oil tanker like range rover! BTW do you want to MOT the range rover No problems, you'll have to wash it first though. The new audis have an electric handbrake (which is annoying as all hell for steep hillstarts. You need to have your foot on the brake to release it!) which I believe is just a switch triggering the ABS circuit. definitely not a direct mechanical linkage. A6's have had e-handbrakes from about 2005, most other models it is optioned from around 2007. Thier system has an electric motor built into the back of the rear calipers, powered from a separate control unit in the boot. The control unit detects current draw to decide when the brake is fully applied. Most of the other manufacturers that have a e-handbrake on there models, retain the conventional hand brake calipers and use a crude winch setup to pull the cables, these setups fail quite regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 OT: The VAG setup with the motor in the caliper is just as crude in my opinion, I've changed enough of those on Passats. Plus, they always seem to fail to ON, more than a little inconvenient for your average motorist I'm still working on the leverage. Do I go with 5:1 (easy access) or drill new pivot points (more pressure). I reckon your foot will cope just fine at 5:1, if you've ever used static gym equipment you'll know how much more powerful legs are compared to arms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic-al Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Dan, if I wash it you'll be able to see all the problems :/ The electric handbrakes are a pain. They're supposed to auto release when you pull away but half the time they don't. We have grand espace at work where the alternator and battery failed, getting that handbrake off was a real pain. The emergency release wasn't up to much. We got it jump started to run it to the garage and got the handbrake off but none of the dash including the digital speedo worked. I know they like to change things for the sake of changing them but sometimes I feel like were going backwards. Post ruined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 This weeks the week to have another go at this project. In the middle I built the range-dozer project, where I built a short dozer blade to use as a ground anchor. It was a laugh, but now it's time to get back onto this head scratcher With the pedals done it was time to hold the CNC fiddles in place, so I stamped out a 3mm plate, which bolts to the old clutch cylinder mounts. This has a bit of channel sticking off it, to bolt the fiddle casting to. I'll weld these together last. Next problem was fitting two clevis side by side into the standard pedal box frame. Certainly no room for the normal clevis pin and split pin! I settled on using M8 bolts as pins, with the heads cut down and an M6 bolt + keeper plate welded on. It lent itself to this method, as there are 2 holes in the standard pedal. But the holes are 3/8", so I slipped in a 3/8" OD tube to take up the slop on both M8 clevis pins. So it all comes together slowly, bespoke bit by bespoke bit. I'll get some photo's when I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Pountney Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Those who don't want to fit fiddle breaks need to try this driving trick. If you have a permanent 4WD with selectable centre diff lock, try slipping the diff lock out, turning full lock, pullling the hand brake on hard and giving it a little gas. The back end the pivots around the centre of the rear axle. It won't work in very situation but is useful when it does. Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 That's a good way to grenade your centre diff if you don't have the upgraded cross pin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 Tempting to upgrade it for that very reason? As in; Drop the centre to open, lock the front diff in and brake a rear wheel. Only thing is, in locked-centre, if you brake the inner-rear the outer rear has to go twice as fast? Does that make it turn even faster. What I really need is a rear-disconnect like a backward series box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 Quite a few hours work there to make it all fit in the space, without hacking up the bulkhead plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 This 'above' shot is in focus and better shows the compromise of the narrow rods from the clevis stepping out to CNC's push rods. I think I'll get away with it, without flex leading to fatigue. I thought the mounting bracket I fabbed up came out very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tyler Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Thats very impressive, i like the way you have kept the mounting bracket so it fits the original hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 . What I really need is a rear-disconnect like a backward series box. X2 ! Would love that on my 80", if you come up with an easy solution that doesn't shorten the rear prop I'm all ears! Your kinked pushrods should hold up just fine I'm sure, there's not that much stress on those parts. Remember on most modern cars the pedal arm is made of plastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 26, 2013 Author Share Posted November 26, 2013 Doesn't feel like it's working? Pedals are very hard, and feel like the main pedal without the servo action. No time to move the pivot before Saturday though, so we'll see how it goes............... The actual 'concept' feels right though. I can't see it going back to hand levers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 We didn't get out trialing today, as we're both a bit rough with some weird bug. So we had a good study of what I had built and it does seem a bit 'hard' underfoot? So I tried driving up and down the garage while trying to lock the rear wheels. Trouble is, the rear disk are only shiny in the middle, so performance would be poor, but I did get the rear-right locked up with a dusty floor. So it looks close to working, but not right, so I am going around again. The pedal is 5.5:1 and the levers are 16:1 with the lower holes I drilled in the handles. (10:1 standard). Next I'll drill new holes in the clutch pedals and see what that it does for it. I might have to file out that very nice 32mm stamped hole though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.