hl1977 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Transfer box (lt230 prefix 22d) on my defender 300tdi has been leaking since I bought it five years ago. As it evolved to amount of 1+ liter oil per 500 km, it was time for changes. So I took out the t-box and gave it a good wash. Placed all seals between parts of casing and output shafts (from gasket kit rtc3890). During that, I didn't split any working parts. When assembling everything fitted perfectly together and no power was needed to put the box together. There were almost no visible marks of wear on ratchets or shafts. So far so good. During the test drive at first everything seemed OK. After ~2 miles the transfer box started to screech. Stopped the car and discovered that first output flange was very hot. Let it cool and drove slowly back. First checked the oil and found that it was water (presumably from pressure washing I did once the box was out from car) contaminated. So changed the oil, disconnected the propshafts and started to investigate. As a result I found out that: * high/low gear and difflock are all working. * output flanges are easy to turn around by hand. * on low gear light knackering is in the box, appearing approx. after every 1/4th of turn. It is possible to feel with hand turning output flange and also can hear it. This does not appear on normal gear. * within few minutes of work, the output shafts are becoming warm (but not hot). For me it seems to be too quickly. * engaging 4th and 5th gear there is possible to hear subtle dry whistle. (last two are with working engine) Is this normal and can I go to use the car or not? Before rebuild everything worked perfectly, but I can't swear that it did not had all these symptoms already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Low gear does not get used much and can feel notchy, someone may be on shortly to advise if it's the cut of the gear Don't understand your knackering statement, maybe auto spell correct changed it, because of the internal arrangement of webs within the box oil does not flow very well around it, there was a post on here a while ago suggesting some modifications to improve oil circulation especially to the front part of the box plus rear bearing if you have a high ratio box or a q box with small teeth from memory You probably didn't help it running it on water, hence may have knackered a bearing What oil did you use? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 the 2 bolts that go through from the front side into the transfer casing (bottom center and in the gap between mainbox and front output housing) need to be 2 or 3mm shorter than the rest. if you have put the wrong ones in their place (easily done as at a glance the bolts are "the same" if thats the case the bolts will be fouling on the gears inside the transfer box, i doubt any real damage will be done but its something to look out for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 [snip], because of the internal arrangement of webs within the box oil does not flow very well around it, there was a post on here a while ago suggesting some modifications to improve oil circulation especially to the front part of the box plus rear bearing if you have a high ratio box or a q box with small teeth from memory [snip] Rob I've spoken to Dave Ashcroft re the lube mods they used to do as I was going to do them when I recently rebuilt my LT230 with their ATB centre diff and Maxi Drive low range gears and he said it's very doubtful they are worth the effort, as in his experience they really didn't appear to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Thanks for all the answers! The oil is GL5 trasmission oil and bolt were all marked during dismantling. I just identified (or at least I hope so) problematic place. Today I fixed the rear output shaft, so only front shaft was rotating. And as a result the subtle dry whistle became quite loud (and it came from the area where differential is located). With rear shaft released, I can barely hear it. So, I quess there is something wrong with the differential as it does not rotate freely as it supposed to be. But, I haven't dismantled the differential during rebuild, so what can be wrong with it? Water from washing could stay in t-box for 2 days max. Is this time enough to cause some kind of rusting inside? Altough, I couldn't saw any rust marks during assembly of the t-box. Do I need to take out the t-box again and check the differential or is it possible to make it work on less time consuming way? I lifted the back of truck to allow oil penetrate front part of t-box more freely but this did not make difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Not sure about your choice of oil... If you search "lt230 oil grade" there is a discussion on one of the other forums about gl5 and gl4 and the brass cup washers that are used within the differential of the lt230 It may have been coincidence that the washers were on their way out Search for "lt230 manual" as that may assist if you don't have a copy Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Not sure about your choice of oil... If you search "lt230 oil grade" there is a discussion on one of the other forums about gl5 and gl4 and the brass cup washers that are used within the differential of the lt230 It may have been coincidence that the washers were on their way out Search for "lt230 manual" as that may assist if you don't have a copy Rob I have workshop manuals from different years and all of them state that the oil should meet API GL4 or GL5. Did quick search in forums and there seem to be supporters for both. Anyway, good to know and in future I will switch to oils meeting both requirements. Anyhow, started taking off the t-box and hope to strip it tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Unfortunately it sounds like your diff, try driving it in diff lock (disclaimer, try it on grass so you don't wind up your drivetrain) if it goes away, it's likely to be the center diff bushes as said above. Fortunately though the Lt230 box is simple and the diff can be removed with the box in situ, although it's not much work to take it out completely nd give it a good going over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted August 2, 2015 Author Share Posted August 2, 2015 Finally got time to split the differential. Didn't believe that something so badly broken was still working. Guess, I have to order STC2940 (genuine/eac parts obviously). But, does it contain only ratchets or are the dished thrust washers (FRC6968) also included? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel_90 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 STC2940 is listed as a kit from what I can find so I would assume it comes with the thrust washers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 the 2 bolts that go through from the front side into the transfer casing (bottom center and in the gap between mainbox and front output housing) need to be 2 or 3mm shorter than the rest. if you have put the wrong ones in their place (easily done as at a glance the bolts are "the same" if thats the case the bolts will be fouling on the gears inside the transfer box, i doubt any real damage will be done but its something to look out for! That is very interesting Mikey. Didn't know that. I will have to check mine before its maiden voyage as I'm pretty sure when I rebuilt my tbox I thought they were the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 While its out who not fit one of these? http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/lt230-rebuild-kits/hd-cross-pin.html At least you know it won't fail again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 While its out who not fit one of these? http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/lt230-rebuild-kits/hd-cross-pin.html At least you know it won't fail again Do you believe that it can withstand power, what will apply when ratchet snaps to its finger? In my case I believe that due to poor lubrication caused by water in oil the friction between ratchet and shaft became so high that they welded together. I have also a question about the dished thrust washers. What is the life expectancy for them under normal use? And/or is there some service recommendations about replacing intervals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Power doesn't kill gearboxes, torque does. (Smart a%££#% comment I know....) The differential is not expected to have massive indifference (ie large amounts of drive to one axle and none to the other). I believe Dave (ashtrans) has stated before and its probably on a YouTube clip too that giving it some welly whilst stuck in a rut is not a good idea if one axle is flailing about whilst the other is stopped given the oiling within the differential itself does not work too well with centrifugal force (ie it throws all the oil out) and those bronze washers become a bit thin and knife edge quick and there is the potential for one of the gears to become welded to the cross-shaft, hence the advice is to use the centre difflock in such situations. However longevity it a bit of a hard one to work out as it depends on use of the vehicle and how little the difflock is used (or not) on low traction surfaces whilst there is rotational indifference between the front and rear propshafts. Simple test for me... How much play / slop do you have whilst the handbrake is disengaged, and the gearbox is in first gear and you are under the vehicle with a hand on each prop twisting them in opposite directions, now change the gearbox to forth or fifth and try again, is there much different? The reason for the gearchange.... Because your gearbox to transfer box input gear may be knackered too hence it may have slop induced into the three way drive system... The other thing to note is that it's reliant upon there being slop in the front and rear differential too unless you disconnect the propshafts.... Not very scientific I know, but as the bronze washers wear there would be slop or play induced between the gears. Alternative solution.... Ashcroft's ATB or quaife and be done with them... Ashcroft's out of stock at present Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Power doesn't kill gearboxes, torque does. (Smart a%££#% comment I know....) The differential is not expected to have massive indifference (ie large amounts of drive to one axle and none to the other). I believe Dave (ashtrans) has stated before and its probably on a YouTube clip too that giving it some welly whilst stuck in a rut is not a good idea if one axle is flailing about whilst the other is stopped given the oiling within the differential itself does not work too well with centrifugal force (ie it throws all the oil out) and those bronze washers become a bit thin and knife edge quick and there is the potential for one of the gears to become welded to the cross-shaft, hence the advice is to use the centre difflock in such situations. However longevity it a bit of a hard one to work out as it depends on use of the vehicle and how little the difflock is used (or not) on low traction surfaces whilst there is rotational indifference between the front and rear propshafts. Simple test for me... How much play / slop do you have whilst the handbrake is disengaged, and the gearbox is in first gear and you are under the vehicle with a hand on each prop twisting them in opposite directions, now change the gearbox to forth or fifth and try again, is there much different? The reason for the gearchange.... Because your gearbox to transfer box input gear may be knackered too hence it may have slop induced into the three way drive system... The other thing to note is that it's reliant upon there being slop in the front and rear differential too unless you disconnect the propshafts.... Not very scientific I know, but as the bronze washers wear there would be slop or play induced between the gears. Alternative solution.... Ashcroft's ATB or quaife and be done with them... Ashcroft's out of stock at present Thanks! If I would knew this few years ago Have driven a lot on icy / snowy / muddy roads with difflock un-engaged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotts90 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I bought the full kit from Ashcrofts including the one piece HD cross pin when I refurbished my LT230. This included the thrust washers too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Thanks! If I would knew this few years ago Have driven a lot on icy / snowy / muddy roads with difflock un-engaged... On slippery surfaces like ice/snow/mud/swamp you're often better off with difflock open PROVIDED you don't drive like an idiot and spin wheels, as described that leads to the centre diff doing what yours did. If you're careful though, with the diff open it allows all four wheels to go at the right speed and retain traction - when you lock it, unless you're going perfectly straight, one wheel will always want to be going at a different speed, and being locked it will be forced to break traction, leading to less grip. On many surfaces, once a wheel loses grip or breaks the surface, it won't recover. That's why difflocks / LSD's are great for powerslides / donuts / drifting. As a Series owner it pains me to admit it but the standard LT230 is the best design of a 4x4 transfer box, and one of the reasons Land Rovers are so good off-road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hl1977 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 I bought the full kit from Ashcrofts including the one piece HD cross pin when I refurbished my LT230. This included the thrust washers too. Mine differential ratchets (STC2940) arrived yesterday. No thrust washers were included. Fortunately ordered them separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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