Jump to content

defender front end - "What should I do?!"


Recommended Posts

So I'm here this time for opinions. I am fitting the new North Offroad V2 Challenge wings and can not decide to do with chassis rail ends. This truck is essentially a road legal challenge truck (a subject of long debate) so I am trying to keep things legal up front.

In an ideal world I would chop the lower dumb-iron part on the rail and possibly shorten the rail back to the crossmember. I need to make way for the winch to sit where the intercooler currently is (which will move back and the rad will head to the rear).

I'm hoping to then create a wide winch basket to complete the look of the car as well as creating mounting points to tie the bottoms of the wings onto. This is essential with the new V2 wings as they have a 3 bolt mounting that sits well above a standard rail when level and seems to make more sense to bolt to the basket than just welding another piece of plate to the chassis.

In these pictures I have the wings literally propped up on welding magnets so they are not squared up in any way but just gives an idea of what I'm dealing with so you guys can throw out opinions. :blush:

Cheers....

challenge wing positioning 3

challenge wing positioning 2

challenge wing positioning 1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you worked out how much you would save by removing them?

I'd suspect once you have a large winch up from the saving would be minimal, even with the rad moved and the cooler moved right back, but could be wrong :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies for the bad photos but they may help, the below pictures are the original North Offroad wings, jacking points have been trimmed and blanked then dumbirons taken back to behind the bolt holes for the bumper and a winch tray welded in. The radiator has been moved back and a TD5 intercooler used so that it sits out of the way of the winch. I have my doubts that the front-outer edge of the wings would fold back if hit hard but they have held up so far :)

Personally I'd trim the jacking points but not go back much further so you can fit standard wings/bumper at a later date if you chose to.

The third photo shows where I had the dumbirons modified by Richards Chassis on a different vehicle, this was to stop the jacking points sticking out past the winch bumper

Hope that helps,

Harry

IMG-20140616-WA0002_zpsfszpunyc.jpg

Red%20and%20Green%20LR%203_zpsevt8jxet.j

IMG_5592_zpsda8abb34.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies for the bad photos but they may help, the below pictures are the original North Offroad wings, jacking points have been trimmed and blanked then dumbirons taken back to behind the bolt holes for the bumper and a winch tray welded in. The radiator has been moved back and a TD5 intercooler used so that it sits out of the way of the winch. I have my doubts that the front-outer edge of the wings would fold back if hit hard but they have held up so far :)

Personally I'd trim the jacking points but not go back much further so you can fit standard wings/bumper at a later date if you chose to.

The third photo shows where I had the dumbirons modified by Richards Chassis on a different vehicle, this was to stop the jacking points sticking out past the winch bumper

Hope that helps,

Harry

Cheers Harry, thats useful inspiration.

when you say "dumbirons taken back to behind the bolt holes for the bumper" does that mean you have trimmed them in a way that wouldn't allow you to use the standard bumper holes? It looks as if your tray/basket is welded on top of the crossmember, is that correct?

cheers,

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers Harry, thats useful inspiration.

when you say "dumbirons taken back to behind the bolt holes for the bumper" does that mean you have trimmed them in a way that wouldn't allow you to use the standard bumper holes? It looks as if your tray/basket is welded on top of the crossmember, is that correct?

cheers,

Sam

Hey Sam ,Yes that's right, the front dumb irons were trimmed vertically behind the 4 holes that the bumper would bolt to so it wouldn't be possible to bolt one on now. The 2 horizontal holes that would hold JATE rings are gone also. The winch tray is welded in but a bolt-in solution would probably work with adaquete crush tubes through the front crossmember.

Without wishing to stick my nose in....

I'm amazed that anyone would want a bespoke chassis for winch type events..... WITH anti roll bar mounts!!

The galvanised chassis was a different vehicle, it wasn't built for winch events but the bumper I wanted to fit requires chassis mods so they were done before galvanising. Richards forgot to take the ARB mounts off before galvanising but they will come off at some point :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the next part of my puzzle is that I am trying to work out if I can fit a Hornet XL up front. I know its possible having measured and looked at dimensions. Ideally I'd drop it in where the crossmember is but that pushing the road legal bit a bit far and I don't want to have much overhang.

So my rough plan currently is chop the dumb irons (as above) and build the mount on top of the crossmember (similar to above) but with the XL being so wide, I'd bring the front plate slightly forward of the inner tube of the wings (for side pulls etc) but really so the side plates of the winch mount can head back at a slight angle (from front plate towards the inner wing tube) to give a better look - more like a standard challenge 8274 winch mount.

With the angled side of the winch mount bringing the looking of the wings together, the chopped dumb irons and the front being an inch or two forward of the wings it should allow me to put a decent angle underneath for steering protection of some sort (or just to cap off the look of the chassis end.

Make sense to anyone?!

ANY EXPERIENCE OF FITTING A HORNET XL TO A DEFENDER GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I thought it worth mentioning that I have toyed with fitting the winch in the engine bay (obviously not the XL) but I can find too many negatives NOT to do it for access and line of sight reasons when competing. I know this doesn't bother some people much as I have seem many completely concealed (which I like) but with our low level of experience I like the idea of being able to see the drum and perform easy maintenance.... There is a bu*ger-tonne of space in there though! (especially when the rad is gone!)

200tdi engine bay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I've attached a sketch (which is pretty lame!), but bear with me and put your visualizing hat on!

post-7712-0-05305200-1449053354_thumb.jpg

If you removed the two radiator mount brackets off the top of the front crossmember you should have a large flat area to put the winch in.

If you made up two caps that bolted to the existing bumper mounts (two each side) and the recovery eye/jate ring hole.

I can't find a picture of what I did, but to have the tie in plates for the recovery/jate rings I trimmed the little wiggle bit that sticks out between the chassis and the front jacking point that you were mentioning to cut off. This idea wiuld still fit around those or you could trim them off.

The winch plate can then be welded to the front two mounts. I think I remember someone previously bolting the back of the winch tray to the back of the front crossmember too.

Hope this helps and you understand it all!

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I've attached a sketch (which is pretty lame!), but bear with me and put your visualizing hat on!

drawing.jpg

The winch plate can then be welded to the front two mounts. I think I remember someone previously bolting the back of the winch tray to the back of the front crossmember too.

Hope this helps and you understand it all!

Steve

That'll be me then I made a bumper with the winch tray sat partly on top of the front crossmember on my tomcat. I welded tubes through and bolted the winch down through the tray and crossmember.

bulgariaxmas09548.jpg

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I've attached a sketch (which is pretty lame!), but bear with me and put your visualizing hat on!

attachicon.gifdrawing.jpg

If you removed the two radiator mount brackets off the top of the front crossmember you should have a large flat area to put the winch in.

If you made up two caps that bolted to the existing bumper mounts (two each side) and the recovery eye/jate ring hole.

I can't find a picture of what I did, but to have the tie in plates for the recovery/jate rings I trimmed the little wiggle bit that sticks out between the chassis and the front jacking point that you were mentioning to cut off. This idea would still fit around those or you could trim them off.

The winch plate can then be welded to the front two mounts. I think I remember someone previously bolting the back of the winch tray to the back of the front crossmember too.

Hope this helps and you understand it all!

Steve

Thanks Steve, appreciate you taking time to knock up that sketch as well!

My biggest issue is looking at it from side-on (see above pictures) with ends of the chassis legs in relation to the ends of the wings.

What you say does make a lot of sense. It runs along the line of a few thoughts I have been considering. The sketch has actually helped me to draw upon that theme and I can feel the creative juices bubbling in my head!

I may have mentioned that Ideally I would like to have the winch sit further back than the chassis ends. However due to rules here on IVA stuff etc (which I appreciate) I guess no-one will be offering opinions on the idea of trimming them?!

I think I will go with something similar to your design Steve but my latest thought is to incorporate the steering box holes as well which are sleeved as well and would give me a number of additional fixing points to spread the load. Seeing as a lot of guys fab their mounts into the chassis on non-road machines, (AND my wings will be attached to the winch cage/basket) I think the more additional fixing points the better!

Perhaps by using fixing points further back up the chassis leg like the steering box holes I may be able to trim more of the dumb irons and maybe even lose the late ring points all together.

My biggest issue is looking at it from side-on (see above pictures).

Currently working on drawing the standard front end in Sketchup and producing a 3D to look at (maybe)....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That'll be me then I made a bumper with the winch tray sat partly on top of the front crossmember on my tomcat. I welded tubes through and bolted the winch down through the tray and crossmember.

bulgariaxmas09548.jpg

Mike

Thanks Mike. I love the idea of creating mounting points at the rear of the winch mount using the crossmember.

Any chance you could shed some light on how you bolted to the crossmember?

cheers Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Long bolts up through tubes welded into the crossmember through the tray and into the winch it's self with big washers on the bottom face. The bumper was bolted through discovery style and the front winch mounts were just through the tray. In total I had 6 bolts holding it all on to the chassis 2 trough the crossmember into the winch and 4 through trimmed dumb irons (bear in mind it's a discovery chassis).

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

My winch bumper also wraps around beneath the front crossmember which I then tubed. There's three M12's bolted through the bumper and crossmember. I also trimmed the fronts of dumbirons back a bit to improve the approach angle

3BB06530-4513-4D69-BC22-F9D5497FE3DD_zps

C1420A9D-F43D-4B03-97A9-E723D6C1954A_zps

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My winch bumper also wraps around beneath the front crossmember which I then tubed. There's three M12's bolted through the bumper and crossmember. I also trimmed the fronts of dumbirons back a bit to improve the approach angle

3BB06530-4513-4D69-BC22-F9D5497FE3DD_zps

C1420A9D-F43D-4B03-97A9-E723D6C1954A_zps

Thanks for that Lewis Nicely done!

May I ask, is that a road registered truck?

cheers

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have removed the dumb irons completely, that saved about 5 kg each. the main rails were cut short by about 40 mm and re tubed for the bumper bolts. the front crossmember was removed, and a new one, consisting of 2 u sections inside each other of which the legs go over part of the steering box was welded in place. they were tubed for the winch to bolt on to. it sits almost 100 mm backwards from original, so it lines up with the series 3 grille.

Biggest legality issue I can see is that the dumbirons have got the chassis number punched into them, so you would lose that. Than there is the rule which says cutting a chassis means an IVA. I dont think it would be enforced for shortening the front end, but the rule is quite clear. I had a new chassis without a chassis number to begin with, which later was SVAd.

My chassis:

galvanizedchassis001.jpg

Daan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have removed the dumb irons completely, that saved about 5 kg each. the main rails were cut short by about 40 mm and re tubed for the bumper bolts. the front crossmember was removed, and a new one, consisting of 2 u sections inside each other of which the legs go over part of the steering box was welded in place. they were tubed for the winch to bolt on to. it sits almost 100 mm backwards from original, so it lines up with the series 3 grille.

Biggest legality issue I can see is that the dumbirons have got the chassis number punched into them, so you would lose that. Than there is the rule which says cutting a chassis means an IVA. I dont think it would be enforced for shortening the front end, but the rule is quite clear. I had a new chassis without a chassis number to begin with, which later was SVAd.

My chassis:

galvanizedchassis001.jpg

Daan

Hi Daan,

Many thanks for the input. I'm in very similar situation in the sense that my chassis is also brand new. However its original intention was just to be a daily driver with option to fit a cage later on hence the front end is completely standard but rear had roll cage fitted (all by richards). That changed half way through the beginning of the build.

How did the SVA process go for you and how long ago did you do yours?

Would love to see any pictures of the front end finished. It looks in that picture as if the the main legs are still the standard length, is that because the crossmember has been relocated?

cheers,

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honestIy don't think you need an IVA, expecially if all you do is cut off the dumb irons and move the cross member. IVA is doable but quite a bit of hassle. If the endresult is all defender though, I would stay clear.

yes with the cross member moved it looks like a standard length.

have a look at the link in my signature for more pics of the daan mobile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

To be honestIy don't think you need an IVA, expecially if all you do is cut off the dumb irons and move the cross member. IVA is doable but quite a bit of hassle. If the endresult is all defender though, I would stay clear.

yes with the cross member moved it looks like a standard length.

have a look at the link in my signature for more pics of the daan mobile.

Hi Daan, some great looking inventions on your truck.

Can you tell me what you mean by: " If the endresult is all defender though, I would stay clear. "

I'm not sure I would need to move my crossmember that go it would be nice if it sat flat rather than at the down tilted angle of he standard defender chassis...

Cheers,

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

...SO, as I started this topic for my own purposes, I thought it only fair to those who have offered their kind words, to provide an update.

After much toying with slight differences bet ween the wings and "nudging" things about 5mm here and 10mm there, I have finally tacked up the basics in position and made a rough cuts to the chassis front end.

I will be trimming the 90 corners off the winch tray and the cardboard mock up bash-plate is massively oversized for me to work from. That will become exactly that - A "bash plate" and not so much a steering guard which I am thinking that I will add a tubular loop - more common to the comp safari boys - but hey if it protect the box for those guys then I reckon it will do the job for me whilst saving some weight!

Thanks for the comments so far. Daan - any more thoughts on IVA opinions for this much appreciated?

pictures below should hopefully be in order:

Front end - winch tray 1

Front end - winch tray 2

Front end - winch tray 3

Front end - winch tray 4

Front end - winch tray 5

Front end - winch tray 6

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you are proposing is almost exactly what I have done with mine

I found the guard for the drop arm was important as I kept killing drop arm ball joints as that was the furthest forward part of the car

As you can see, I cut the dumbirons right back, and had to reshape the chassis rails too

560D99D8-A888-429D-9196-419017369DF3_zps

E1928D2D-513D-4C8D-B544-DDB4020878F1_zps

0941C1D6-FFC4-4CBF-BF44-DA034070F440_zps

FC9F0032-B0CC-41E6-8541-9F2F044D709E_zps

The bumper bolts ended up just under the grill, and the winch is well back

D5C6AF90-93B6-47BB-A0DA-1A5456FE5945_zps

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy