Trouble with non starting TD5

[finnarne]

My neighbour has a somewhat troublesome 110 TD5. It's a P10, my 1999 or 2000 i think.

He has had some problems with his car, and should actually had returned it after he bought it. But he has kept it, and al sorts of trouble has turned up. Well, maybe not that many, but enough that he hasn't driven the car to much.

When he fetched it, it was a bit hard to start, and had a leak in the coolant system. He was told that one of the injectors were not programmed correctly, and that caused the problem with the starting.

At some point he checked the coolant fluid, and found diesel in it. Changed the diesel cooler, and it looks like the diesel has vanished from the coolant fluid. At some point it also seemed like the cooleant leak also vanished. but I guess it cfame back, cause he changed the thermostat housing (and thermostat).

Now to the hard starting problem. If he tries to use the starter, the engine turns over, but fails to start. If he gets the car rolling, it starts with no problem. He get some help from a mechanics, who thinks the trouble is with the Ignition barrel, and adds a push button. It help some, but only for a short while.

The starter stops working, and he fixes the starter with the Denso starter solenoid kit.

Well, the engine turns over again, but still wont start.

When I listen to the engine, it turns very slowly. He buys a new battery, but I'm not sure if it ever starts using the ignition. I'll ask him later, I think he's a sleep now.

We also change the Fuel injector seal kit, and it starts a bit easier (when the car is rolling), but still wont start in the starter engine.

The car has an Defa cold-start block warmer, with so called integrated charger. It's a constant 13.2 volt thing, that actually destroys the battery. To top that, someone has installed a seat heater thingy, with a relay, connected so that the relay draws constanlty 0.2 amp, so the battery is ruined in just a few days. Without a proper charger the battery is almost ruined.

We're able to jumpstart the battery using his Disco2 TD5 and let the jumpers stay connected for 5 minutes.

So we guess it's just a bad battery.

Well, he borrows one of my chargers, and looks like we manage to get the battery back. But the car still wont start. Or when he tries at home, it wont start, but when he tries after fetching his kid from kindergarten, is starts on the ignition (still using the pushbutton). But I think that was the last time in some time. He takes the battery back to where he bought it, to get a new one under warranty, as it does not really hold that well. The denied, as the battery was still able to deliver the specified CCA. Well, I cant blame theme, as I know what's happened to the battery, and I dont blame him, I guess I would have done the same.

Well, the starer problem is starting to bother me. He is nearly giving up on the car, and considering selling it. But for some reason he buys a new set of wheels for it. Ok, it stays. We just have to fix the staring issues.

We've got some Diesels in the neighbourhood, I have my 200 tdi and a Td5 Disco, my other neighbour has his 300 tdi disco, (Actually he bought a 90 TD5 in the meantime but.. ) We connect the 300 tdi wit6h jumpstarter cables, but it wont fire. Then we switches batteries taking first on, the 2 batteries from the 300tdi into the 110 td5, but no help.

Then we connects the 110 battery to the 2 Disco batteries using jumper cables, but no start. Then we start to look at the cables for the diesel pump, and pull a bit in the cables. then I try a "last time", and the beast starts. I Manage to start it a few times, then that's it.

But each of the batteries are able to start the 300 tdi without problems.

I put one of the batteries on charge for a couple of days, then we try again. But first we put a new connection between the ground point under the ECU, and negative battery connection (ve-?). No help. Then we start to look at the starter again. Looks like there is time for new starter solenoid kit again. A bit to soon, but maybe he got a bad set ? He took the starter to a mechanics, who looked at it. Ok, it's a bit worn, and should be replaced, but it should not cause these problems.

Back again tonight, we made a new cable for earth, and connected it from Battery negative and directly to one of the bolts of the starter. No help. Then disconnected 12volt positive from the starter, and instead connected a newly charged battery directly to the starter. No help, or maybe. Then we disconnect the alternator from the starter as well. No help. then I wiggle (?) the connector to the flywheel sensor a bit. Almost. Then one more time. And it starts. Once. We try a few more times. then we take out the flywheel sensor, and give it a try a few more times. Then we get a pattern. If we let the glowing finish, and waits until the Fuel pump starts at "full throttle" again. Then we push the start button, and it starts. Again and again. With 2 batteries and no alernator. One of the battery on the floor. Ok, it's time to test with one battery again. But no help. But no, this battery was really low.

When the staring fails, the fuel pump shuts down after we try, until we disconnect the flywheel sensor. Then the pump wont stop. So it seems like the flywheel sensor sort of works. But I think he is ordering a new flywheel sensor anyway.

Another option is that maybe the pump fails. It seems to work ok, but we've not tested with another one yet. It's a 110, so he need s to take the tank down, or make a hole in the floor.

But the car has another problem. We think it needs a new fuel pressure regulator, and that's what's causing it to eat the starter solenoid kits, but we're a bit afraid to do to much, as we're not able to bleed the diesel system. We're trying to pump the accelerator pump after turning on the ignition, but it wont start the bleeding process. Not sure if we should be able to start the process using the nanocom.

Are there any other way to start the process ?

Anyone knows what could cause the bleeding procedure not to start ? It should start even if the battery is a bit low ? Or, how much voltage should there be to start the procedure ?

Any help and suggestions are appreciated.

[Aragorn]

You said near the start the engine cranks slowly? Has this continued?

Maybe the starter motor has an internal short and simply isnt spinning the engine fast enough to get it to actually fire up?

If its cranking normally, then perhaps its air leaking into the fuel system? Could you put a fuel pressure gauge into the supply line to see if the cars actually building fuel pressure? Maybe the pump itself is failing to run sometimes?

[finnarne]

We've considered exchange the starter engine between one of the working td5's and with this one that gives us trouble. But it's wet outside, and the only garage that we're able to get a car into is this one were the one which wont start is in.

And we're a bit afraid of messing with the fuel line, since we are not able to bleed the fuel system.

[Bowie69]

Wet? Put a coat on...

[Shackleton]

Td5 won't start with even a slightly slow battery. I mean the kind of drain that will sound like it's cranking fine to the ear but is just down slightly, will stop a Td5 from firing. But it sounds like you've tried everything battery wise.

Can you get your hands on a Nanocom (or other ECU reader), if there are a few of you with Td5's you could chip in on one. It'll give you the injector values which you can check against whats printed on each injector. If the values don't match it won't start.

In general it sounds like that Defer has been neglected badly so I think it'd be wise to take the cam cover off, have a look at the injectors and change the injector seals - which is another common reason for a poor or non starting Td5. Is there a gurgle and whine from the fuel pump when the ignition is switched on?

Other possibilities are that there's still air in the system after the fuel cooler change. And any playing with the fuel system can dislodge dirt in a clogged fuel filter, which can fully block it (in my experience) so with a machine that doesn't seem to have been looked after like that I'd change that as a matter of course too. Regardless the Td5 self purges air so don't worry about playing with the fuel system. Turn the ignition on and pump the throttle pedal 10 times to set the fuel system into purge mode. It will cycle the fuel pump many times so you just wait until it stops. You'll need a good battery for that though

Hope that helps, and by the way, you probably know this from your own, but that's not a typical amount of trouble for a Defender.

Happy Christmas!

George

[finnarne]

Td5 won't start with even a slightly slow battery. I mean the kind of drain that will sound like it's cranking fine to the ear but is just down slightly, will stop a Td5 from firing. But it sounds like you've tried everything battery wise.

We have not yead pulled out a battery from a Td5, and put it into the 110. But the battery from the Td5 90 is worse than the one in 110, but the 90 start easier.

Can you get your hands on a Nanocom (or other ECU reader), if there are a few of you with Td5's you could chip in on one. It'll give you the injector values which you can check against whats printed on each injector. If the values don't match it won't start.

The Nanocom is out on a loan 30 km away. I guess we'll get it back soon, but not before xmas. I think we have taken the holidays off for now.

In general it sounds like that Defer has been neglected badly so I think it'd be wise to take the cam cover off, have a look at the injectors and change the injector seals

We've changed the injector seals, and reprogrammed the wrong injector.

Is there a gurgle and whine from the fuel pump when the ignition is switched on?

There is the (normal) whining, first at low pitch while the glow plugs are on, then the higher pitch afterwards (some seconds after the glow warning lights go off). The whining from the pump stops as soon as we stop the starter. If we disconnects the crank sensor, the whining from the pump wont stop until we turn of the ignition. I think that is normal. But I dont think we hear any gurgle.

Other possibilities are that there's still air in the system after the fuel cooler change.

..

Turn the ignition on and pump the throttle pedal 10 times to set the fuel system into purge mode.

No. This one wont start ther purge/bleed mode, even if we pumpt the throttle pedal 10 times. Believe me, we've tried.

But thank you very much for your help anyway

[Ally V8]

Good luck with your TD5, I would like to add one point - if the ECU has incorrect injector codes stored it will NOT stop the engine from starting or running.All that will happen is that the engine will not be as smooth as it should be.

[Anderzander]

I believe these things can cause starting problems ?

http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/fuel-filter-bleed-valve-genuine-wkb100330-wjn500110-p-17972.html

[finnarne]

Now the owner has gone on a tripptelleren the cabin for some days, but he has tried to start the engine a couple of times after we called it the night the other day. No luck. But then we started thinking on what was different from when we were able to start it a number of times with the 2 battery setup. First we had the alternator connected and the car wouldn't start. Then we disconnected the battery, and it started 6 out of 10 times. Has anyone experienced that a faulty alternator caused a non-starting Td5? But it also seemed to be some problem with the crank sensor, so that one is to be replaced anyway.

[pigster]

this sounds electrical to me. I would be checking the loom for the engine. sounds to me like its been trapped or caught somewhere and is needing to be fixed. I trapped my loom when doing the clutch and all hell broke loose.

take the centre seat or cubby box out and remove the panel beneath for an easier view on the loom. before it goes into the seat box.

The flywheel sensor has its own cable that has been shielded - if that's been played/tampered with or damaged with it too caused trouble. I spent many hours fixing it all.

have fun hope this helps.

ps - just looking at your original post - you may have issues also with your head if diesel and coolant are mixing. hows the oil looking? you could have a crack in the injector ports of the head causing poor starting.

[finnarne]

Well, My neighbour made a decision. He is selling it. Or kind of. He is going to exchange it with what I think is a well kept 200tdi Ninety. He even gets some cash in between. And I would be very surprised if the new owner fail to get it starting.

He bought the 110 Td5 in April, so he (end is wife) is kind of feed up.

I guess it's better to start fresh.

[finnarne]

To close this one as well. New owner replaced the starter with the one from his Disco2 TD5, and problem was solved. Ordered a new starter. Then he started to fix the rot. I think he is still fixing it...

So even if the starter was able to turn the engine, it was not fast enough to start it.