Jedward McGovern strikes again

[Shackleton]

 

There has to be something in the geography though. I mean the cost of getting the cars to the antipodean market for JLR has got to be a factor. Looking at it that way Toyota would have been doing a LR on it (IE sitting still) to not have put effort into getting into Australia.

[PhantomSVE]

They all break,they all give trouble and at some point in time they all need work.The key with companies like Toyota is that they understand what customer service is all about.

I recently gained a Defender customer in Tasmania who runs a rescue service.I had to set-up a module (ECU) here in Germany and DHL the unit to him to get his Defender back on the road.The local LR dealer left him stranded for five months.

When I contacted the dealer and identified myself,offered to help in any way to get the customer back on the road and twelve phone calls later the dealer failed to anything to help the customer.The dealer response was absolutely appalling

 

 

Phantom.

[studmuffin]

3 hours ago, Davo said:

Toyotas do have problems, but I think the sheer numbers of them tends to hide it a bit. However, they are generally well built. The 200 sells well here despite its tiny payload and monstrous price, just because it's a Toyota. The interesting thing for me is how, in a small and remote market like Australia, Toyota has really put the effort into selling cars and it has paid off for them. I can't figure out why, but JLR hasn't, and is laughable because of it. I just can't believe they'll ever regain this lost ground - I think they could, if they'd bother - but I can't see it happening, ever. 

During 2 holidays in WA covering a flippin huge distance in a campervan, I saw 3 LR series or Defenders, and maybe 20 Discos/RRs.

During the same miles I saw about 10,000 Toyota,Nissan, Honda  etc.... 4X4 trucks.

It isn't by any measure a small market. ---------And LR gave it away.

Barry

[GW8IZR]

56 minutes ago, PhantomSVE said:

They all break,they all give trouble and at some point in time they all need work.The key with companies like Toyota is that they understand what customer service is all about.

I recently gained a Defender customer in Tasmania who runs a rescue service.I had to set-up a module (ECU) here in Germany and DHL the unit to him to get his Defender back on the road.The local LR dealer left him stranded for five months.

When I contacted the dealer and identified myself,offered to help in any way to get the customer back on the road and twelve phone calls later the dealer failed to anything to help the customer.The dealer response was absolutely appalling

 

 

Phantom.

Dealers can do a lot of damage to your brand.

 

I had a new Discovery 2 TD5 that needed the fuel pipe recall, Dealer near Manchester refused to do the work as the floor in the rear was obscured by a plywood board.. fitted by SVO. They wanted to charge me for removing the board and some equipment from the rear. I reckon 30 minutes work for which they estimated 250 Quid.

So I ran it for a bit and eventually spotted tell tale droplets of Diesel on the back window. Rolled into my local dealer in North Wales who did the whole lot with no fuss. I asked them about the floor when I collected it, no problem its an SVO so we just did it.. oh and it only added 30 mins to the job so we just did it.

A while later a friend ( sadly dead now ) who had been using series LR and 90's all his life as a farmer. He had a TDCI from a dealer in mid wales on some kickback from the FUW, about 2K discount. That was a very early TDCI 90 and had a DMF which failed at 6 months. The same dealer as above that had been so good with me refused to fix it claiming driver abuse. That vehicle was repaired at the owners cost but LR insisted it be fitted with a solid flywheel. It then ran for another 18 months pulling the same trailers with no problem.

From LR perspective that was bad news as when he swapped it.. for an Audi! - I heard him regularly telling people at the market how he had been treat - by LR and he would never buy another.

[BogMonster]

On 09/09/2016 at 10:08 AM, Arjan said:

Don't think we're part of the potential buyers group...

With the D IV they've sort of left their roots behind.

 

Having owned 3 Discoverys (1992 200Tdi, 1996 V8 and 2002 D2 V8) and 4 Defenders (1987 90, 1995 90, 2004 90, current 2006 110), I think I am very much in a potential Land Rover buyers group. I have owned more Land Rovers than I have every other marque I have ever owned all put together.

I loved all the Discoverys, especially my last D2. The new ones have just lost the plot, working as a dealer on the early D3s they were nothing but a frigging nightmare, everything went wrong, and it is all far too complicated for mere mortals to understand, Land Rover tech support weren't much help. The later ones and the D4 were better for reliability but still too complex and getting more so. As I often used to say, it's a great car when everything is working, but that's usually the problem.

I would have bought a fourth Discovery without looking anywhere else if they'd made it a sensible vehicle at a sensible price. And by now I would have bought a fifth one.

But they didn't, too busy chasing the pimpmobile market with stupid 20" alloys and rubber band tyres. So I kept the D2 for thirteen years and eventually when I reluctantly sold it I bought a Shogun, which is comfortable, reliable, has the spare wheel where it should be on the back door instead of on a springy winch which breaks every other time you use it, and though it has independent suspension it is held up with steel springs rather than flatbags. Oh, and it was 2/3 the price of a Discovery 4. It has what I consider the essentials in a vehicle. Essentials are a comfortable interior, plenty of room, a good engine and drivetrain, power steering, aircon, a CD/USB player, electric windows and alloys. Everything else is just carp to go wrong.

So I am - or was - very much a potential buyer. They'd better get the Defender replacement right. If it actually really exists, as somebody said ..... it does not take ten years to develop a new vehicle model, and that's how long it has been since the last Defender makeover. And they need to sort out the pricing. Fifteen years ago the Discovery and the Shogun were comparable in price. The Discovery is now 50% more expensive.

 

[Happyoldgit]

I've just got shot of my latest Defender Tdci. Prices are strong at the moment and despite being an avid LR devotee for years [having owned umpteen of their various models since the cart sprung days] I've grown tired of having to nurse what are supposed to be rugged products with a +£30k price-tag. The Defender wasn't at all old [just had its 2nd service] with 12,000 on the clock but this year two dealers failed to fix an issue with the vehicle, the first one seemed totally unable to detect a quite obvious clonk when taking up the drive despite supplying good, concise video evidence - and despite the clonk being very evident when the vehicle was returned. The second dealer had the vehicle for two weeks and despite replacing the guts of the rear axle and going over the rest of the drive-line and associated components the clonk returned after two weeks. This was warranty work so was all FOC but getting the vehicle to and from suitable dealers can be a chore as dealers are not so numerous now, gone are the days when LR had a dealership in most major towns.

TBH I just was not willing to continue to take the gamble relying on a vehicle for day to day use knowing that the next journey could very well see the vehicle totally and unexpectedly incapacitated due to the well known intermediate / adapter shaft failure that JLR refuse to acknowledge. There was also the likelihood that the clutch springs were likely to start rattling their little hearts out [as per my first Puma], or that the the powder coating was likely to flake off a load of the exterior fittings [as per my previous Puma's], or that to prevent the chassis deteriorating in double quick time I'd need to regularly top up the anti rust treatment I applied from new - the list goes on. 

Outdated design, variable assembly, variable quality control, chronic lack of rust inhibition, failure to admit to some very well known issues and to deal with them without question both at manufacture and dealer level. Variable dealerships etc, etc.

Same old, same old.

[Snagger]

Land Rover do have appalling service, but that is because they are too hands-off with the franchises, which are not LR employees.  They also have suffered from years of terrible build quality, with (Clarkson quote) a quality control standard of "That'll do".  Quality improved dramatically with the new models, but that was probably largely through robotic construction; standards on the Defender line remained deplorable to the last day.  It saddens me to say it, but too many of the workforce just don't care, from line workers to cost engineers and bean counters - look at the bad paint, panel misalignment and rust on Defenders in show rooms, and look at how flimsy the HEVAC servo motors, ride height sensors and other such things are, all to save a few pennies per vehicle, pennies that the buyers would pay many fold for to buy a quality vehicle.  Those bean counters destroyed LR's reputation in most markets worldwide, nearly destroying the company.  And I'm sure they managed to make it all look positive on paper and earn bonuses and promotions.

[Scotts90]

In 3 pages we've all had a whinge about LR and its current tack, and we've all had a rose tinted view of past products (defender/d1/d2/fl) but at the time they had their own foibles. K series meltdowns, VCU failures, td5 loom failures, the "3 amigos" to name but a few. My D2 had a loom failure, the D3 had EGRs go, the D4 never skipped a beat...

Dealers are just that. Dealers. Once they've prized your hard earned and delivered their product usually they have no continuing interest in your wellbeing or car-karma. This is not LR specific, its inherent in most dealerships regardless of marque. Having owned a plethora of different makes and models I've received substandard service from most and warranty work is the worst.

So what do we do? We are on this forum because wisely or not we seem to have an affinity for LR. A large number of us have rebuilt and refined where LR did not and made reliable where LR could not. A recent price search found a last of line defender at £69k....seriously £69k?? A mate just bought a Td5 90 (last of them on a 56 MY07) for £14k and it's not pristine by any stretch. Regardless of reliability and build quality these are sought after vehicles, to further quote Top Gear they picked Alfa as one of their "best" car builders....and  anyone with a knowledge of cars will know how reliable they turn out to be.

A private car purchase is not a purely logical thing. If so we would all drive the same über reliable boxes and it would be regarded as a means of transport pure and simple. My other car is faster, quieter, more economical, comfortable, reliable ...it was built by robots in Russelheim not sweaty men in Solihull. However if it came to it and the fleet had to be reduced then the 90 would stay.

Its a Land Rover thing.

[Happyoldgit]

Up to a decade or so I may have agreed with the "it's a Land Rover thing" but not now. That sentiment is fine for a hobby / second motor outlook but not when they were knowingly still flogging Defenders with inherent and potentially dangerous faults right up until the last.

But hey, having other Defender drivers who you don't know from Adam wave in passing is important right ...err not to me it ain't!

[Scotts90]

In a decade what has changed though? The defender gained tdci engines, better dash layout and heaters crammed into the same unchanged package. If the package was the problem then why continue purchasing throughout that decade?

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

In 3 pages we've all had a whinge about LR and its current tack, and we've all had a rose tinted view of past products (defender/d1/d2/fl)...

Then again, look at the SRS, total brake failure or full throttle with no way to shut the engine down in an automatic recalls that Toyota have had, and the fire related recalls of Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango, just for example.

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

Dealers are just that. Dealers. Once they've prized your hard earned and delivered their product usually they have no continuing interest in your wellbeing or car-karma. This is not LR specific...

That is why LR should be making more effort to see the dealers support the customer after sale.

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

 

 

 We are on this forum because wisely or not we seem to have an affinity for LR. A large number of us have rebuilt and refined where LR did not and made reliable where LR could not. A recent price search found a last of line defender at £69k....seriously £69k?? A mate just bought a Td5 90 (last of them on a 56 MY07) for £14k and it's not pristine by any stretch. Regardless of reliability and build quality these are sought after vehicles, to further quote Top Gear they picked Alfa as one of their "best" car builders....and  anyone with a knowledge of cars will know how reliable they turn out to be.

I don't.  I have no love for the modern company.  Tata specifically turned it's back on the enthusiast.  I don't have any ill will for the workers, other than that they were so feckless on the Defender line, but the company is just another one in the blancmange of the industry now.  I am only interested in their older vehicles, only those with beam axles, and not really even the P38.

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

It's a Land Rover thing.

No, it's an enthusiast thing.  Exactly the same behaviour is shown in followers of Triumphs, Jags, Jeeps, Reliants and even Allegros.  It's about us and the specific car we love, and at a stretch, the people behind making them, not the modern company.

[Scotts90]

Ok, so if I prefaced my statement with "it's an Old Land Rover thing..."

I can reel off countless recalls for other manufacturers too, but we aren't discussing them as far as I'm aware. The general content   within this thread has been one of displeasure at the current model line up, and with the company as a whole. I assume all the negative detractors would rather have seen the company fail in British hands than prosper in foreign ones? 

I can't really think of any large manufacturer that has the enthusiast at heart, they all play on their heritage to sell current models. I can't see why JLR should be any different, it's not as if they have the monopoly on heritage. 

Although you have no love for the modern product, there clearly are some who do as shown by the volume of owners groups and forums dedicated to the newer models. I still rate my D4 as one of the best cars I've had, it fulfilled its role superbly. If I had the need to buy another family car then the RRS or new D5 would be top of the list...my money; my choice.

My 90 is my toy, but in daily use. It tows, does the dump run and school run with equal aplomb. It turns heads and heaven forbid another owner may give a nod or wave of appreciation ( which seems to be frowned upon oddly enough). 

But, in the end these are my thoughts and opinions. Each to their own.

 

[Snagger]

I don't think anyone wants to see the company struggle or fail except the competitors, but I think most of us would prefer it was UK owned.

You're right that none of the competitors are truly altruistic, but Jeep continue to build basic vehicles for that market that are comparable to the Defender, so much so that it makes LR's excuses about bumpers, safety and emissions clear lies.  Toyota, Nissan and other Far Eastern brands continue to make several models of very simple and rugged nature that are taking the Defender's market, and that is purely because of LR's arrogance.  They satisfy all markets, whereas LR wants to distance itself from working classes and chase the noveau-riche.  It has become a fraud, and it has foolishly limited its market while everyone else tries to expand theirs.  It has moved from being the most credible 4wd manufacturer to nothing more than a fashion label.  Isn't that a sad reflection of dire mismanagement?  Fashions change, and 4wds will go out of vogue, and where will they be then?

[Happyoldgit]

2 hours ago, Scotts90 said:

In a decade what has changed though? The defender gained tdci engines, better dash layout and heaters crammed into the same unchanged package. If the package was the problem then why continue purchasing throughout that decade?

 

Simple, because there was little else on the market that suited my requirements at the time. I agree there were changes / improvements but some of those had issues that marred the package.

[Shackleton]

 

It's just not our LR anymore. 

[Scotts90]

57 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I don't think anyone wants to see the company struggle or fail except the competitors, but I think most of us would prefer it was UK owned.

You're right that none of the competitors are truly altruistic, but Jeep continue to build basic vehicles for that market that are comparable to the Defender, so much so that it makes LR's excuses about bumpers, safety and emissions clear lies.  Toyota, Nissan and other Far Eastern brands continue to make several models of very simple and rugged nature that are taking the Defender's market, and that is purely because of LR's arrogance.  They satisfy all markets, whereas LR wants to distance itself from working classes and chase the noveau-riche.  It has become a fraud, and it has foolishly limited its market while everyone else tries to expand theirs.  It has moved from being the most credible 4wd manufacturer to nothing more than a fashion label.  Isn't that a sad reflection of dire mismanagement?  Fashions change, and 4wds will go out of vogue, and where will they be then?

Nicely put.

Can't  argue with that

 

[BogMonster]

15 hours ago, Snagger said:

I don't think anyone wants to see the company struggle or fail except the competitors, but I think most of us would prefer it was UK owned.

You're right that none of the competitors are truly altruistic, but Jeep continue to build basic vehicles for that market that are comparable to the Defender, so much so that it makes LR's excuses about bumpers, safety and emissions clear lies.  Toyota, Nissan and other Far Eastern brands continue to make several models of very simple and rugged nature that are taking the Defender's market, and that is purely because of LR's arrogance.  They satisfy all markets, whereas LR wants to distance itself from working classes and chase the noveau-riche.  It has become a fraud, and it has foolishly limited its market while everyone else tries to expand theirs.  It has moved from being the most credible 4wd manufacturer to nothing more than a fashion label.  Isn't that a sad reflection of dire mismanagement?  Fashions change, and 4wds will go out of vogue, and where will they be then?

Yup, agree with that. To which I'd add: the other manufacturers still build at least one range of vehicles that can still do a hard day's work.

Defender has long been the 'brand anchor' - because if you say Land Rover you think of a man in a checked shirt hacking through a forest with his chainsaw and Defender, you don't think of some pillock from Essex with stick-on teeth and inflatable muscles on their way to getting a spray tan in his RR Sport.

Personally I don't think they can carry on relying on that heritage for too long just because the factory restores a few Series 1 vehicles. So they need to get on with a replacement.