Supercharged Rover V8

[jad]

Afternoon

I recently bought a 4L TVR Chimaera and am finding it a bit slow.... I have been looking at ways to increase the performance and forced induction seems to be a fairly popular option in the TVR circles (as opposed to putting in a higher capacity rover V8) I have been informed that Boothy on here already runs a supercharged 3.9 so would be good to get your opinion if you wander into here

My plan would be to buy another engine to rebuild, top hat, and fill with things like ARP studs so I can keep the car on the road in the mean time with its current engine. The engines the SC conversions are normally put on are GEMs, cross bolted, so either 4 or 4.6L or the other variants of TVR rover v8 which arent necessarily cross bolted. I was looking at Thor versions as they appear to be quite a bit cheaper than the gems which I assume is because people are not as familiar with them? I am not sure however if the SC kit would be compatible with the thor top end? Obviously there would be some changes to hoses/air intake etc but essentially being the same engine I wouldnt have thought there would be too much difference? The engine would be megasquirted so the thor engine management system would be a problem. Does anyone see any problems with using a thor engine for this?

Does anyone know the compression ratio used on the 4/4.6 thor engines? A lower compression ratio engine would be more suitable.

This is an example of the SC kit.

Turbo charging is another option that is available. It is also cheaper and generally gives more power than supercharging. Two aspect that I dont like is that the turbo sits where the catalyst normal would, so MOT time can become a problem, a turbo obviously needs an oil feed which would I would see increase oil temps a good amount and lastly I think under bonnet temperatures would also be increased more than with a SC.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

Jad

[FridgeFreezer]

You'll spend a lot of time & money effectively polishing a turd there - if you need more than a mild tune of the RV8 can give you're going to get far better value dropping in a lump that makes the ponies out of the box, something like a Chevy LS lump will double all the numbers an RV8 can manage without breaking a sweat, that's before you add any of the very cheap & available tuning bits. Just a new ECU with some nicer numbers in is cheap & easy.

Being a road car you could also look at less grunty lumps with bigger numbers, for turbo madness the jap stuff seems popular, effective & well catered for.

[jad]

My god man Japanese stuff in a TVR? Wash your mouth out!

Lots of people run forced induction in rover v8 TVR's. They have done plenty of miles and produce plenty of power. Obviously that doesnt mean its possible to screw it up however....

The problem with a lot of other engines like the chevy engines are they are too big to fit in the engine bay and therefore require chassis work. I dont want to get into that as otherwise I will have to take it all apart and galvanise the chassis after

Jad

[FridgeFreezer]

I didn't say the RV8 couldn't be supercharged, just that it didn't necessarily represent best value for money when engines like the LS are several generations better and very available. There's also the Mustang 4.6's, vortec V6's, the JLR supercharged lumps to keep it in the family, lexus V8, etc. etc.

I don't believe the LS can't fit where a Rover fits, they are compact & light, people have fitted them in MX5's. If memory serves, the LS is no bigger than the Rover.

[jad]

I would like the keep the car in a state where it can be returned to standard condition If I wanted to sell the vehicle without forced induction. I wouldnt want it to lose all value! I did consider a lexus lump as I am currently gaining experience on them but it is too wide for the chassis.

The turbo/Supercharge to me seems like a good solution as it is bolt on and can be reversed engineered. There is no need to change the gearbox or mess around with connecting different connections up or fabricating more parts to fit it. I am not looking for another massive project at the moment.

Jad

[Team Idris]

I like the turbo for engines that run at a fixed speed all day, but for road use the turbo/supercharger of your link is good. They have their own oil supply too. If space is tight the water charge cooler is a good option as well.

I'd supercharge the RV8 for the reasons of 'fit', with the same bellhousing and all that. I don't think there's any harm in it as long as you fix the known problems. But I would go dry-sump as well to lift the oil pressures, which also involves solid tappits, so they don't 'pump up'.

[greenstream]

Mr. Frigdefreezer

Where should one be looking for a LS1 engine and whats the going rate ?

Thanks

Morten

[discomark10]

I have to say a 454 with a bell housing adaptor would be a very good solution.
With the THOR the inlet manifold is very restrictive due to its narrow bore. Its good for low torque but restrictive at top end and especially for boost!
The comp ratio is the same I believe.

[elbekko]

Doesn't the RV8 supercharger fit in the valley? So at that point the intake shouldn't matter.

[jad]

Idris what kind of oil pressure would you think of increasing it to? What do you mean by pump up? Do you know of any off the shelf dry sump kits? I wouldnt fancy making my own for something so critical. Are the followers a bit more complicated than I gave them credit for?

Mark what are the differences in diameter like for thor and gems? would it make much difference for a boosted engine? Especially when you are already pushing air through a chargecooler or intercooler?

Cheers

Jad

[jad]

Elbekko If you look at the link I posted to the kit above it uses a centrifugal supercharger so doesnt sit in the valley.

Jad

[elbekko]

Ah, didn't see that, sorry. I was thinking of this one:

[Team Idris]

I wouldn't be working mine hard when cold as it does 60psi oil pressure, which is risking the pressure in the hydraulic tappits lifting the valves. I don't know where the safe point is, but I must be well on the way

Because it never goes over 40psi when hot, or below 30psi in normal running, the problem isn't there normally. If you keep the pressure up all the time, to keep the main and big end bearings afloat, its a constant problem you fix with solid adjustable tappits. I guess there are adjustable rockers that fit, but I don't know what?

Going back to what the supercharger does over a turbo charger, you need the oil pressure because there's no turbo lag as such, so the torque goes up at the low rev end, and works the bearings more. And an easy way to fix a few problems of oil starvation as well as an easy way to bring the pressure up and maintain it, I recommend dry-sump. I think the Ibex at Stoke does 100psi.

[Team Idris]

Making dry sump isn't so bad. Follow the rules, like giving it a good big 1" solid suction line and all should be good. It is a fair amount of work, but so is re-working the engine. I was scared to do it because I thought about pump drive issues, but once built I find that I can easily turn the oil pump with a speeder bar and 10mm socket to full pressure. Folk use a toothed belt, I use a V belt, and power wise you could probably use a vacuum cleaner belt ! So the chances of belt failure are unlikely if you have suction strainers in the system.

Sump wise, it's easy to overthink that as well. I went for a box channel down the middle to act as a drainage ditch. If you have four pick-ups the sump can be very shallow and flat. I carry 10 litre so emptying the sump isn't vital. There are proper ally sumps that come up, but cutting the bucket off a normal sump will do. And this is probably my next mod as my over-welding gave me bad seal.

Honestly, most of the problems of wet sump, like sucking up oil, that oil being red hot, it all sloshing up the bores, the oil getting overworked, the pump loosing pressure as the oil leaves the pistons hot and so on all goes away with dry sump

[jad]

Mine is 45 when cold and I think when hot is normally 30 at idle and doesnt go above 40. I dont go above 2000rpm when below 70 degrees anyway so wouldnt be loading up a cold engine. I can get the oil pressure down to about 20-25psi after giving it a good flogging. Obviously the oil pressure may drop a bit with heat if the performance is increased. 100psi seems very high for a rover V8 are they not worried about blowing seals?

Its something I can look into but at the moment I think its a little more involved than I want to get. There isnt a huge amount of room in the engine bay either compared to a landy. The exhaust manifolds coming forwards see to that. I imagine any kits would be very expensive as well. (I know the SC isnt cheap...)

Jad

[jad]

http://www.johnealesroverv8.co.uk/21.html

When did John Eales get a website? Have never come across it before...

[FridgeFreezer]

Where should one be looking for a LS1 engine and whats the going rate ?

America, and I've no idea. Summit racing etc. will sell you a brand new crate engine in various states of tune, or you can trawl eBay / breakers for used stuff. I dare say US car mags would carry the odd advert for suitable suppliers.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Afternoon

I recently bought a 4L TVR Chimaera and am finding it a bit slow.... I have been looking at ways to increase the performance and forced induction seems to be a fairly popular option in the TVR circles (as opposed to putting in a higher capacity rover V8) I have been informed that Boothy on here already runs a supercharged 3.9 so would be good to get your opinion if you wander into here

My plan would be to buy another engine to rebuild, top hat, and fill with things like ARP studs so I can keep the car on the road in the mean time with its current engine. The engines the SC conversions are normally put on are GEMs, cross bolted, so either 4 or 4.6L or the other variants of TVR rover v8 which arent necessarily cross bolted. I was looking at Thor versions as they appear to be quite a bit cheaper than the gems which I assume is because people are not as familiar with them? I am not sure however if the SC kit would be compatible with the thor top end? Obviously there would be some changes to hoses/air intake etc but essentially being the same engine I wouldnt have thought there would be too much difference? The engine would be megasquirted so the thor engine management system would be a problem. Does anyone see any problems with using a thor engine for this?

Does anyone know the compression ratio used on the 4/4.6 thor engines? A lower compression ratio engine would be more suitable.

This is an example of the SC kit.

Turbo charging is another option that is available. It is also cheaper and generally gives more power than supercharging. Two aspect that I dont like is that the turbo sits where the catalyst normal would, so MOT time can become a problem, a turbo obviously needs an oil feed which would I would see increase oil temps a good amount and lastly I think under bonnet temperatures would also be increased more than with a SC.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

Jad

I've spent much time looking at ways to up power Rover V8's. And the biggest issue is cost vs return.

I can't seen any prices on the link you posted, but I'm willing to bet it's would be cheaper to simply buy a TVR Cebera 4.2. if you wanted more speed.

If you've got the know how and ability then self building a kit would be possible, but in the UK we do suffer with not really having a great used market of bits to choose from.

Same goes with turbo kits too. I've always liked the concept of rear mount turbo's for home installs. Sure it may have some drawbacks, but at least looks and easy thing to get working. But finding suitable sized used turbo's in the UK is an issue on a budget.

Have a look here: http://ststurbo.com/

A couple of other thoughts.

TVR were known to lie about the power outputs of their engines. And RV8's do suffer worn cam followers, so it could simply be your engine just isn't performing as it should. So maybe just a refresh is in order to get it performing.

Lastly, the type of supercharged you linked too, won't give you massive low and mid range, that type of supercharger is engine rpm dependant, so will make most power at high revs when being driven hard.

Honestly, I think the most cost affective thing for an RV8 is assuming the induction/exhaust are good, is just stick a big cam in it and some ported heads. But don't go OTT on the heads. You'll get a big change in how it feels to drive and can be done for £1k.

[jad]

price for the kit I linked to is 3.2k plus vat. So not exactly cheap. Dyno results here at the rear wheels. That I believe is for the standard kit without an intercooler. They estimate 310Hp 329lbft at the flywheel and you can get more with the intercooler (720+Vat). Turbo kit can be had for 2.7k plus vat which includes an intercooler and gives more power/torque than the SC kit although they are on a par when the SC is intercooled. I could just buy a cerb but I am one of those people that gets something and then just doesnt want to leave it as standard... sometimes I wish I didnt feel the need to tinker!

I plan when they start gritting the roads to inspect my camshaft to see how it is and replace if necessary (It is on 66k miles). If I were to aim at supercharging I would probably start off with a 4.6 rebuild it, put megasquirt on it and chuck it in the car and run it in first to make sure I dont have any issues. While doing this I might find I am happy with the performance of a good 4.6 and dont need the supercharger. But its hard to say at the moment.

Jad

[Chicken Drumstick]

Have to say I've always wanted to supercharge something. But dropping £4k+ is a lot of money to only get 300hp. Remember a stock factory spec 5.7 LS1 will be making 350hp or so.

Although getting hold of a LS1 in the UK isn't as easy or cheap. I'd look at buying from the US used and shipping crates as well as looking for one in the UK, such as out of a stacked Monaro/VXR8.

If you find a 6.0 LS2, then they are 420hp out of the box. Which all in all makes the old RV8 seem low on HP even ignoring the cost.

[jad]

Looking at that supercharger kit and John's dry sump I am not sure the 2 would be compatible. They look like they would come off the same mounting points and interfere with each other.

And yes I could buy an LS engine and then a gearbox and spend a HUGE amount of time modifying the chassis getting it working etc etc but I dont want another huge project.... Hence why I would like to keep the rover V8! So sssshhhhh

Jad

[Chicken Drumstick]

Another option might be just refresh the cam in the 4.0 to something more aggressive and fit a nitrous kit. Not saying it's better than the other options, but certainly a cheaper option, and one that isn't spent all on the car, as you can always remove the kit.

http://www.noswizard.com/car-nitrous-kits/wet-car-nitrous-kits/efi-wet-nitrous-kits/efi-wet-street-car-nitrous-kits.html

[jad]

It would be cheaper but then you would have to keep buying nitrous which would be a pain. I also cant see many insurers happy with nitrous. Although the same probably goes for a SC conversion. The SC can also be removed from the car easily enough.

Jad

[jad]

You'll spend a lot of time & money effectively polishing a turd there - if you need more than a mild tune of the RV8 can give you're going to get far better value dropping in a lump that makes the ponies out of the box, something like a Chevy LS lump will double all the numbers an RV8 can manage without breaking a sweat, that's before you add any of the very cheap & available tuning bits. Just a new ECU with some nicer numbers in is cheap & easy.

Being a road car you could also look at less grunty lumps with bigger numbers, for turbo madness the jap stuff seems popular, effective & well catered for.

America, and I've no idea. Summit racing etc. will sell you a brand new crate engine in various states of tune, or you can trawl eBay / breakers for used stuff. I dare say US car mags would carry the odd advert for suitable suppliers.

How do you know I will get better value from a chevy/LS engine when you dont know what the going rate is?..... Not quite sure I understand that one!

Jad

[FridgeFreezer]

10 seconds on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291203725478

A 6.0 400hp LS with transmission, ECU, loom, ready to rock for $5400 / £4300. If it cost you £5k landed and duty paid that's still some very cheap ponies. And that was literally the first engine that came up, there's probably better/cheaper ones, if you don't want the gearbox and use the bellhousing adapter someone mentioned instead.

For the Rover, the price of tuning parts alone gets very close to the general ballpark of a used LS, in fact it's not hard to spend crate engine money on squeezing 300hp out of a Rover.

You mentioned £1500+ for a supercharger

Stage 2 heads are £1400 ish

That dry sump kit was over £1k

Assume it's not worth doing any of that without engine management to handle it, MS being cheapest you can get it in for £500

Maybe a cam kit, £250

Factor in gaskets and stuff, maybe £100 but could easily be another £250 refreshing / upgrading things while you're in there.

And that gets you what... maybe 330hp? And quite a stressed Rover 8. Coincidentally it adds up to about the price of the 1st LS engine to pop up on ebay above, which makes 400 very silky ponies and torque everywhere, if you rummage down the back of the sofa for a reprogrammed ECU you'll probably gain an extra 100 of everything for maybe $1000.

For super cheapness, the Buick Fireball V6 is less glam but a good performer, millions made, won awards, and may well bolt in where a Rover V8 was as it's derived from the Buick/Rover V8:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine

There's supercharged ones too, so someone's done all the R&D on it already. Found a complete supercharged car in good nick for $2700, again first thing that popped up on eBay US.

Edited to add:

If you want REALLY unsensible, the breakers in my 1st link have a supercharged LSA with 6-speed auto which makes 550 of everything for $14000 "or best offer".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291219502069

Or Speartech will sell you a shiny new one of everything ready to run for the same money, but fewer ponies:

http://www.speartech.com/product_p/ls36l802.htm