Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 From Demon Squeeeeeks Website : EWP115 Alloy Pump The revolutionary EWP pump from Davies Craig is now available in a lightweight aluminium housing, designed with the racer in mind. This rugged pump features 1" NPT female inlet and outlet ports to enable installation via Aeroquip or similar fittings. The EWP improves engine cooling control and capacity while giving you more power and improved fuel economy. The EWP is universal and fits almost all makes of vehicles on the road today. This EWP115 version is a large capacity pump suitable for use on big capacity engines eg V8 and above. The benefits of fitting a Davies Craig EWP over an existing mechanical pump are - * Coolant is circulated after engine shutdown preventing hotspots * Increased engine power and torque * Better control of engine temperature * Increased cooling capacity * Improved fuel economy * Increased engine life * Radiator size and coolant capacity can be reduced saving weight * Increase in maximum engine speed Davies Craig EWP pumps can be fitted as a stand alone item, however to obtain the full benefits it is recommended that it is used with a digital controller which gives you full control over the engine running temperature. Kit includes a selection of fittings to suit different hose sizes and installation instructions. Digital Controller This dual digital controller from Davies Craig allows you to control your electric water pump and radiator fan in one unit. Simply set the optimum engine running temperature and let the digital controller adjust the coolant flow rate accordingly, locking onto your target temperature. Should the temperature rise 3 degrees above the target then the controller will automatically switch on the radiator fan until the temperature is reduced. A further feature is the ability to run the water pump for 2 minutes after the engine is shut off, reducing heat soak and prolonging engine life. Your engine is also able to reach optimum temperature faster reducing cold start engine wear. The EWP/Fan controller has a range of onboard diagnostics which can analyse and report the state of your cooling system. http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Cooling_System/Water_Pumps/Davies_Craig_EWP115_Alloy_Water_Pump_Digital_Controller_Combo/1852/0/182795 So, how exactly does this work ? Do I leave in place the normal waterpump, and remove impellor then plumb the above into it, and if so to the top or the bottom hose ? Am I right in thinking, that if you set the controller to say 88 degrees it thn sppeds up or slows down the electric pump to maintain the target temp ? 1" NPT Ports ? - From the pic looks like std hose ends ? what am I missing ? How good are these ? Is there a better competitor / option ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berti1554 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Is there a better competitor / option ? Yes, leave your mech driven pump in Why would you put in an electric pump? The only benfit I see in putting an electrical one in is that it would allow the water to circulate once the engine is stopped. However, you should let the engine cool down before you stop it anyhow. All the other things are bullsh!t. Fuel efficiency? BMW has/had that on some cars but there the pump was made for exactly that engine size. More torque and HP? Where is the difference whether the pump is directly driven by a belt or the alternator and then an e-motor to drive the pump? The belt might have higher efficiency. Replacing a mech fan by an electrical one makes sense, no question about that. Replacing the pump is imho not even worth thinking about. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I thought that with a engine driven fan, if its getting ferkin hot the pump is still only drievn at the engine speed, ie deep mud, 2nd low and 2000 rpm = pump spinning at that ratio to the 2000 rpm, but, I THOUGHT the eletric pump with the controller would see the engine getting hot, but isn't linited to the ratio of 2000 rpm and would increase flow as if the engine was say doing 6110 etc thus increasing flow and the cooling as a result, but done with the engine at a differing RPM Or have I understood how these work. Agree the BHP / MPG is real snakecharmingoil Thoughts ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 My thoughts are what's so wrong with the mech pump you have? Personally I would run with what you have and only add another complication if required, at a later date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with your thoughts - prob is the 4.5 is a right B*****d to keep cool, thats with higher spin water pump pulley (home made) 2 x 16" fans, vents and water wetter, all help, but when it decides its hot the coolant jumps and is out of control. Yes, it doesn't heklp that the 4.5 is / was a 3.5 block, so the jackets are thin, 4.6 IBG Block to 5.2 may not be as crucial, but to be honest I wnat to do a fit and forget, and not a fit and then modify. I have already GOT to fit a remote filter unit, so an oil cooler does look a good idea, its then do I add a oil stat or not ? Cooling oil down takes some heat out I know and takes some strees off the water system, I never got around tio shoving a oil cooler on the current engine, it was on the list but..... Hence me thoughts about doing it on install ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You take the impella out of your current pump but leave the housing in place. This goes into your bottom hose coming out the radiator. Sorry - not seen the electric controller in action. Have a search for boothy's posts, he's running one on his v8. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Oil stats are definitely a good idea, gets it up to operating temperature much faster so it can do it's job properly, and a big cooler with a thermostatic fan is a very good idea to keep it and the engines temperature down when the going is harder. I assume you are still going the rear rad route? If so the improvement in cooling from this should help a lot too, just not being clogged and able to move as much air as the fans can push will be a bonus, without the restriction of a semi-sealed engine bay in the way. Looking at that pump, it has 1" in and outlet, is that big enough for a V8, where the standard hoses are 45mm(1 3/4") internal....? Anyhow.... with rear rad, greater water capacity, oil cooler and water wetter etc you have already done a lot to improve things, the above could just be an unnecessry expense, but if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then go for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 38mm internal aren't they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Well, on the Serp 4.0 bottom hose I have it's 45, I used a piece of CDS roll cage tubing to make up a joiner -as Nige is running a serp front end from what I understand... I went with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I've run electric pumps on my racers for about 10 years, firstly in a rear mounted rad in a RR pick up and 5.3 Chevy, then 6.3 and now 7.0 in a rear engined racer with the rad sat on top of the engine. I run twin 12" Spall fans, high output ones, and it never runs hot. At des Cimes racing up mountains I disconnected one fan as I was short of battery power and it still didn't overheat. I used to run a Davis Craig pump but changed to a Meziere when I got the LS as it justs bolts on in place of the original. On the Chevy engines I binned the water pump and made flanges that bolted to the block, if you've picked up a cast Chevy water pump you'll know why. I did buy the controller but didn't use it for long, it pulses rather than speeds up and down which I didn't like. I decided to fit without a thermostat and let the fans set the running temperature. The engine still warms up quickly and it works perfectly. I like that the water is always circulating. The advantages are that you are not reliant on the fan belt, I also have electric power steering, so the only thing running by belt is the alternator. If for any reason is has got hot you can put your fans and pump on with the engine off and cool it to cold quite swiftly. As you've gauged already you get better circulation at tick over. Whilst you may not gain any bhp or fuel economy, which wasn't in my requirements, it makes sense to me that you are no longer accelerating the coolant everytime you rev the engine. As you know with racing it's critical that you finish and for me an EWP gives me more chances of doing so and more flexibility should anything unexpected occur. An example of how it helped was at Manby a few years back. One fan blade broke, pieced the rad and then helpfully moved along the cowling and broke the second fan blades. I scrounged one non fitting fan and with cable ties and duck tape got in something like. Although it was hot at the end of a run I was able to cool the engine right down between runs, giving a finish and a pot. Doomsayers will tell you they don't circulate enough water and there are no benefits, but once you assessed all the pros and cons you can decide if it's worth it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 As I said before Nige, I've got a spare EWP here you can try if you like. As discussed in your rads'n'fans'n'cooling thread, the issue is not moving coolant or air through the system as fast as possible but at the optimum speed to transfer as much heat as possible from block to coolant, coolant to rad, and rad to air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berti1554 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 ...I have already GOT to fit a remote filter unit, so an oil cooler does look a good idea, its then do I add a oil stat or not ? Cooling oil down takes some heat out I know and takes some strees off the water system, I never got around tio shoving a oil cooler on the current engine, it was on the list but..... Hence me thoughts about doing it on install ! Nige Adding an oil cooler will help a lot as it takes much heat out of the engine. RV8's always had oil coolers fitted from factory - at least 3.9 and above. The engine and pump speed is a valid point, haven't thought about that before. However, I'd first put an oil cooler on as this will dramatically increase cooling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 ...which completely contradicts the consensus on oil coolers in Nige's other very confused cooling thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Yes, it does contradict what was said previously and not true imo. And also the problem being not enough cooling, whether you use a beltdriven or electric pump makes diddly squat difference to your problem, which is not enough cooling. All the pump does is transfering hot water, there is no heat lost in the process, and therefore your still running hot. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Yes, it does contradict what was said previously and not true imo. And also the problem being not enough cooling, whether you use a beltdriven or electric pump makes diddly squat difference to your problem, which is not enough cooling. All the pump does is transfering hot water, there is no heat lost in the process, and therefore your still running hot. Daan Just so. I couldn't find any sensible figures for the speed that water should circulate for optimum cooling but it did make sense to me that the fans should have as much flow as possible (using the analogy of cooling something with running water). So I went for High Output Spals at 1870 CFM for a 12" Fan. I couldn't find any other fans near that. I know they are manufacturers figurers but that's about all you have to go on, and they do give ratings at different pressures. I can feel a heat difference between the fans when at running temp so I know they are doing the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 A couple of thoughts: You need to make sure you have a high enough flow to get turbuent flow in the cooling passages - this will ensure that the water temp is more or less uniform, Non turbulent (laminar) flow will result in the water at the edge of the passages getting hot and reducing the temperature gradient - this gives lower heat transfer. As well as giving you better heat transfer, turbuent flow will prevent/reduce the likely hood of stagnant area's that will result in hot spots. I suppose you could find the biggest water passage size and calculate the minimum water flow required to give you turbulent flow in this secction. This will then be the minimum flow rate around your system. If your not careful independant fan and pump controllers will fight each other. Over my pint of cider on the way home from a hard days graft I have come to the conclusion that I would set it up as follows: Water pump speed minimum flow set as per top of the post. Pump speed controller linked to temp sensor in engine water flow out to rad. Set the controller to speed up to maintain a desired outlet temp. Say 95 C??. Fan controller linked to rad outlet temp. Set to maintain an even rad water outlet/inlet temp to engine, say 70 C?. The above would result in the engine having a constant thermal gradient across it resulting in a nice happy engine - Less likely hood of shifting block liners and the like. When you boot it at the traffic lights/bottom of a muddy bank the following will happen: More fuel in to engine produces more heat. Water pump speeds up to keep water outlet to rad at 95 C More heat arrives at rad, fans speed up to keep rad outlet(engine inlet) at 60 C. Fan speed will vary for a given heat load depending on natural air flow over rad (on motorway or sat in a bog)and air temp (-18 last winter or 30c this summer?). The thermostat will bypass the rad if you have excessive cooling with the fans on, i.e. on motorwy at -18C. I'd preffer the fans on speed control rather than on and off. Rationale for this that you have a relatively high power output for the engine size/mass. It will therefore heat up relatively quickly compared to a standard engine. You therefore need to control the heat in a more sopisticated way to prevent transient temperature spikes. Pint of cider finished, better go home to decorate the bloody hall.. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The result of my pint of carlsberg has not changed my thinking: whenever your car stops, it usually an electric problem which spoils your day. So I would not consider an electric pump, fan or even a winch for that matter. You introduce so much more posibilitys for an omg moment that it isn't worth it. In case of the electric pump: blow a fuse and you could cook that lovely engine of yours; f that. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Wanted to say it, but wanted someone to say it first, Daaan is talking sense. Failure of leccy fan means you will cook it slowly, and have audible warning they aren't working. Failure of EWP and you have no warning at all and block hot spots cook your V8 in super quick time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I can't tell from the picture whether the inlet or outlet are threaded internally or not. I've sene electric pumps before, mostly as a cost or space issue rather than outright performance but I know merlin motorsprt sold a similar product last time I had their catalogue. I think some of their claims are hard to prove, you've probably seen the adverts for Kenlowe fans claiming they improve MPG, well they only do that because they can't shift enough air. IIRC the viscous fan shifts around 5,000CFM or more than twice what any electric fan set up can shift. If you think that a drive belt can abosrb say 2hp (conservative perhaps) that's 1,500watts, or 125 amps. An application engineer at Kenlowe advised me NOT to buy electric fans for my LSE, that too had cooling problems that a new viscous and rad sorted. I don't know if yours is the same but on the RRC the rad has the potential to carry an extra core, some dealers refer to it as a "lost core" design, basically in ultra hot countries they fitted a 5th (IIRC) core to the back of the rad to increase cooling in hot climate. IF you had to potential to build/fit one you would increase the cooling surface by 25%, though I wouldn't expect the cooling capacity to raise by as much. As said by others some of the claims for the EWP are based on the energy needed to move that much water around and as a lot of "race" cars have very long cooling systems, well I'd like to see evidence. Yours sounds a slightly different problem, rather than a more than adequate system which you want to lighten or shrink you have a system that barely copes. Would moving the water faster make a difference? Theoretically yes, under certain circumstances. The rate of flow of (heat) energy is proportional to both the temperature differential and the mas flow of coolant. Problem is if you succeed in getting the water temperature down then the water/air rad will not dump heat as fast. Throwing heat into the air becomes the limiting factor and I suspect this is where you find yourself. If Fridge Freezer has a spare one to lend then try it, even in series with the mechanical pump it will make a diffference to flow rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Daan, Depends on what your doing - for off road/bog work I don't disagree. I bet the leccy water pump IP rating is not up to being submerged in muddy goo. However my pint of cider say's that was not the question........ Adrian P.S. didn't think that the electric's caused your 300 TDi to go bang in russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) Thinking about the heat needing removing - Google gives an efficency of ~ 20% for a 4 stroke petrol engine. Assume Nigel gets 340 HP at the flyweel as per the orginal engine build post, so assuming the rest of the energy input to the engine goes to heat, so thats 1360 HP in heat to remove, or 1014KW, yep, over 1000 electric fires..... That's one big radiator when you factor in an allowance for it to be blocked with mud. Adrian Edited April 26, 2011 by B reg 90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Daan, Depends on what your doing - for off road/bog work I don't disagree. I bet the leccy water pump IP rating is not up to being submerged in muddy goo. However my pint of cider say's that was not the question........ Adrian P.S. didn't think that the electric's caused your 300 TDi to go bang in russia? no, it was caused by a rock the size of sardinia.... All sorted now though. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Big heat requires big flow (not fast flow) through big rad with big air being pushed through it - simples Standard WP simply won't push enough flow to make a big rad as effective as it could be Electric WP's are superb things for non standard petrol lumps and work well in non standard diesels with big tuning. Only issue after big flow + big rad + big air is coolant movement through the block - ie are the waterways really big enough I haven't seen the famous Nige oil cooler thread yet but I'll go and read it for the laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Also Daan's engine-driven fan lost all its blades, quite lucky the £2 Lada version bolts on really eh Daan at least electric fans you can bodge any other one in place fairly easily. I've known far more viscous fans fail than electrics, and more than one which has done big damage (EG eaten into the radiator) when it failed. RRB - I think improved MPG claims are down to two things; The fan doesn't turn at all when it's not needed, so it's not using engine power most of the time, and warmup times are shorter so warmup enrichment (choke) is over with faster (on petrol engines at least). I still think EWP is not the answer to Nige's problem. I carry mine in the race spares kit as, like an electric fan, it does make a more easily bodged "one-size-fits-all" spare water pump for the various vehicles in the team than carrying or trying to source a water pump for any of them in the middle of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Thinking about the heat needing removing - Google gives an efficency of ~ 20% for a 4 stroke petrol engine. Assume Nigel gets 340 HP at the flyweel as per the orginal engine build post, so assuming the rest of the energy input to the engine goes to heat, so thats 1360 HP in heat to remove, or 1014KW, yep, over 1000 electric fires..... That's one big radiator when you factor in an allowance for it to be blocked with mud. Adrian This is all of course based on peak power/heat production, it's unlikely to ever be doing this except for very short intervals, before Nige needs his nappy changing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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