LED Headlights

[Guest]

It was with excitement a couple of years ago I read that the First 7 inch LED head lights had been E approved, whilst I know there are issues around depth perception etc, with cheaper LED's these promised that this had been resolved, that was until I saw the price £1k !!!! Convinced that in a couple of years they would come down in price, well I am still waiting!!

But there is hope on the horizon!! On a trip to the US just before Christmas I noticed that a few of the trucks had what looked like LED headlights. A bit of a searching and I found these OK so they are still the best part of £150 each and not yet E approved or RHD but I am sure it will just be a mater of time before as with all of these things now they are reaching mass market the quality will improve and the price will fall. Personally I will make the jump to LED at £200 no more steamed up or half full bowls and a chance of seeing at night when it's raining.

So that's will signal the end of 'my headlights aren't very bright' threads on here what will be the next thing technology will fix on my Land Rover?

Jason.

[disco2hse]

Interesting that all the reviews are clearly written by the seller.

[simonr]

On the depth perception thing - after my explanation of why, a few months ago:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=71236&view=findpost&p=608886

I bought a couple of 500nm LEDs - and in use, they make a huge difference. I must get around to replacing one White LED in a head torch.

The down side is they are an unpleasant blue- green colour that reminds me of mouldy things!

However, if it were coupled with a carefully chosen red and blue LED, I think you could engineer a nice White colour with superb depth and distance perception.

I definitely think LED headlamps are on the near horizon. However, I will wait until there are OEM's using them widely. This will reduce the cost of the underlying LEDs and drivers and show that the depth and focus problems have been solved. I think that in a few years they will be huge - but now is probably not the time to bankrupt yourself being the first to have an emerging technology.

Si

[The Badger]

Thing is, currently the Emarked ones are only available from a very expensive online store, if you look through all there stuff it's really pricey, however it is top quality kit, but just to expensive right now...

I read that you also need headlight leveling on them if fitted as an upgrade, in the UK.

[mmgemini]

I'm a very big LED fan....Even in the house we now have quite a few LED lamps.

I've seen the real beam pattern on the 7" headlights in the dark. I was very impressed. Well apart from the price. Actually I've used LED since late 2004 in various places on my Defender. I don't think the price will drop very much.

[hobson]

I loved the idea of LED headlights ever since i saw them available in a Landy mag last year, but at £1500 a set, i nearly passed out!

That said, i quite like having crappy Land Rover headlights, it's one of the things that gives it character and makes it a Defender! i'm going to be very careful changing all the bits on mine as various technologies improve, before you know it we'll be driving square looking Ford Mavericks with a LR badge!

It's like buying a series 1 and moaning about not having soundproofing!

[mmgemini]

hobson.

Yes so so true but as my Defender is my only car.....

I do have Hella headlights wired up correctly so I can see where I'm going in the dark

[pat_pending]

Am I the only one who thinks LEDs are over rated? True, some expensive LED lights are very good, but a lot of the stuff about is just tat.

We have multi LED inspection lamps at work. OK, they're cordless, rechargeable, low volt and safe, probably last a lifetime. But the light output is nowhere near as good as the old 240v 100w lamps.

LED is fashionable, it isn't all an improvement.

[FridgeFreezer]

£300 buys a lot of H4 bulbs. Or at least 10 HID conversions last time I looked on eBay.

[tuko]

I to am interested in the LED headlights and was searching the internet a while back and came across a few good threads that proved to be very informative. This is the one that stood out the most as a guy used proper light emiting gauges/devices/readers or what ever its called to determine the effectiveness of the different types of lights avail.

You can read it here: Paging Hilldweller..... The thread is 6 pages long, but a good read all the same with Jeeps.

The above lights that you have the link to Jason, I've read on other forums from servicemen that served in the middle east, their comments rangged from didn't like them to "I hate them". The above test does show that they don't provide enough effective lighting to make them the next wonder upgrade for 7" headlights in my opinion. Also as mentioned earlier the funny thing is that the developers don't provide raw information on the light outputs, light patterns or comparision tests of their products. I would have thought if they were coming out with the a new product that they would be doing exactly that, showing theirs is best.

I do agree that LED will be the way to go in the future, but not today.

Todd.

[Turbocharger]

We're starting to use LED headlights on new-build buses - for the hours they run, the labour and issues that a bulb failure causes, and to get us out of the woods with prohibitable defects, they're starting to make sense.

[Guest]

The above lights that you have the link to Jason, I've read on other forums from servicemen that served in the middle east, their comments rangged from didn't like them to "I hate them". The above test does show that they don't provide enough effective lighting to make them the next wonder upgrade for 7" headlights in my opinion. Also as mentioned earlier the funny thing is that the developers don't provide raw information on the light outputs, light patterns or comparision tests of their products. I would have thought if they were coming out with the a new product that they would be doing exactly that, showing theirs is best.

I do agree that LED will be the way to go in the future, but not today.

Todd.

Hi Todd,

I agree the Link was just an example of the price coming down, I couldn't find the seller of the ones I saw in the US they were closer to the £1k ones with the same sort of reflector. I also agree that with yourself and others in this thread that they are not there yet, I was really making the point that the price slide was starting to happen and I didn't think it would be that long until they were in reach of the average man.

I also agree that HID would currently be the best choice if only they were Legal!! (require self leveller and wash system) and now they are part of the MOT I don't think you are going to get away with swapping the bulbs any more which is a great shame as the Light omitted is very close to daylight, I have HID bulbs in my Spot light and love them, I have LED H3 Bulbs in my roof bar spots and although they are not the most powerful they are very good for scene lighting when pitching camp etc and at 12w for the four of them I can leave them on a while without having to worry about the battery.

Jason.

[FridgeFreezer]

We're starting to use LED headlights on new-build buses - for the hours they run, the labour and issues that a bulb failure causes, and to get us out of the woods with prohibitable defects, they're starting to make sense.

I'm assuming yours aren't off eBay though?

Do you have any tech on what they are, as I would assume they're actually properly made with decent light output, beam pattern, etc. so it'd be interesting to see if there's proper performance data on them.

[hobson]

Best upgrade i've had on lighting were the +90% bulbs, i got a pair from Autobulbs Direct for about £25, made a surprising difference, they even have +100% now.

Definite upgrade for a fraction of the price of emerging technology, i think LED is great, we're replacing bulbs in the house as they go and most of my torches including the high output one i use for shooting are LED, but for normal people using it in vehicles as a main source of lighting is still a few years away i think,

unless that lottery win comes up!

[The Badger]

I think if I had some space cash, I do like the idea of all the lighting being LED except the headlights, I would just put HID in there. And then fit some extra driving lights as the more light you have the better esp on long hauls, saves your eyes getting tired quicker.

[SteveG]

I also agree that HID would currently be the best choice if only they were Legal!! (require self leveller and wash system) and now they are part of the MOT I don't think you are going to get away with swapping the bulbs any more which is a great shame as the Light omitted is very close to daylight, I have HID bulbs in my Spot light and love them, I have LED H3 Bulbs in my roof bar spots and although they are not the most powerful they are very good for scene lighting when pitching camp etc and at 12w for the four of them I can leave them on a while without having to worry about the battery.

Jason.

Just to clarify, LED headlights would be just as illegal as HID if you retrofit them.

[Guest]

Just to clarify, LED headlights would be just as illegal as HID if you retrofit them.

Why ? The £1k ones are e-marked and fitted to trucks as replacements, what makes them illegal?

Jason.

[CwazyWabbit]

Why ? The £1k ones are e-marked and fitted to trucks as replacements, what makes them illegal?

Jason.

Don't the new MOT regs say something about head light cleaning and self leveling being a requirement on both HID and LED headlights?

[The Badger]

To fit LED or HID, in the UK you legally should have headlight leveling, if it's an update.

[SteveG]

Why ? The £1k ones are e-marked and fitted to trucks as replacements, what makes them illegal?

Jason.

There's no guidance on LED headlamps in UK, so strictly speaking they would be illegal to retrofit. However, it would be safe to assume that they would be treated the same as HID and therefore you'd have to have same reqs for HID to be legal.

So LED headlamps would have to fitted in an e marked enclosure designed for them, would require some form of self levelling and have headlamp washers fitted to be legal. This is for retrofit only, new cars come under European type approval.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

There's no guidance on LED headlamps in UK, so strictly speaking they would be illegal to retrofit. However, it would be safe to assume that they would be treated the same as HID and therefore you'd have to have same reqs for HID to be legal.

So LED headlamps would have to fitted in an e marked enclosure designed for them, would require some form of self levelling and have headlamp washers fitted to be legal. This is for retrofit only, new cars come under European type approval.

Cheers

Steve

Has this not been the case for a while the MOT only allows for single filament bulbs and not LED? I know of at least a dozen Land Rovers running NAS/LED type lamps and passing MOT's. I myself use LED bulbs and my 110 passed it's MOT today without a mention of any issues.

As you say, new cars are covered under type approval system, however technically all LED lights are illegal in UK law as it again only allows for single filament bulbs but in that case it seems European Law trumps UK Law. However unlike HID there is nothing that specifically that appears within the regs preventing you from fitting them LED whilst the rules around HID bulbs are specific. As you say sometime in the future they may apply the same rules as HID retrofits but at the moment there is no such mention.

Jason.

[CwazyWabbit]

A look at the end of section 1.7 of this document http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpenpicture3-lighting.pdf says ....

Headlamp washing and levelling systems are mandatory for all vehicles fitted with LED headlamp systems, although these are not yet widely used and only tend to be optional fitment on some executive marques. However, as LED systems improve and because they can be arranged in almost any design configuration, they are sure to become more common.

Where headlamp levelling or cleaning devices are missing or defective, but there is doubt as to whether they are required, the benefit of the doubt should be given and an advisory notice issued.

Most of section 1.7 goes on about HID lamps with this bit being interesting to ....

This raises the question of whether these checks apply to vehicles fitted with after-market HID lighting kits. These kits convert conventional halogen headlamps to HID Xenon and they are widely sold and fitted to vehicles used on the road. The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems. Some high specification estate cars are fitted with a self-levelling suspension system and this would be considered as adequate for the purpose.

My interpretaion of these is that the DFT want the same rules applied to aftermarket as for factory fit for HID so it is reasonable to assume the same is true for LED, they don't specifically differentiate between aftermarket and factory fit in comments about LED. What is also interesting is the use of the word SHOULD instead of MUST.....

[SteveG]

Has this not been the case for a while the MOT only allows for single filament bulbs and not LED? I know of at least a dozen Land Rovers running NAS/LED type lamps and passing MOT's. I myself use LED bulbs and my 110 passed it's MOT today without a mention of any issues.

As you say, new cars are covered under type approval system, however technically all LED lights are illegal in UK law as it again only allows for single filament bulbs but in that case it seems European Law trumps UK Law. However unlike HID there is nothing that specifically that appears within the regs preventing you from fitting them LED whilst the rules around HID bulbs are specific. As you say sometime in the future they may apply the same rules as HID retrofits but at the moment there is no such mention.

Jason.

Hi Jason

Firstly, to be clear, my first and subsequent posts are not intended to be critical or negative, I just wanted to clarify that legally there is no difference between LED and HID in uk law. Also MOT testing guidelines are not relevant in this discussion. MOT tests are there to test all vehicles in uk roads. MOT tests have to be updated to account for features added to new cars under European type approval and testing of these. So if the MOT starts to have wording about HID & LED headlamps, this has nothing to do about the legality of retro fitting these. For example if the MOT test doesn't ask a tester to see if the headlamp units are designed for HID/LED it doesn't suddenly make it legal. It may reduce the chance of being caught, but not the legality.

So back to the legal bit, the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 are the current enforceable law for vehicle lighting in the UK. HID & LED are not mentioned as a permitted lighting type and are therefore not legally allowed. New vehicles are legal with HID and LED as they are permitted under European type approval and being part of the EU, the UK parliament has agreed to abide by these laws.

So as you can see all lighting not mentioned in The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is illegal unless it's for a new car and then EU type approvals will have priority.

Therefore retro fitting LED & HID's to any age of vehicle is not legally permitted in UK. However, as explained in the fact sheet the DfT are willing to accept retro fitting of HID headlamps if they comply with the following...

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

It's a fair assumption that they would treat LED headlamps in the same way. I've pasted in the wording of the dft factsheet below, but as mentioned by you and other people to legally retrofit HID's they need to be in a European type approved headlamp unit designed for them, have headlamp washers and have self levelling. So to legally retrofit LED headlamps in UK, it's fair to assume you'd have to have the same to get a similar exemption to uk law from the dft.

Cheers

Steve

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fact sheet: Aftermarket HID headlamps

December 2006

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.

Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:

1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.

If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:

Transport Technology and Standards 6

Department for Transport

Zone 2/04

Great Minster House

76 Marsham Street

London

SW1P 4DR

Telephone: 020 7944 2078

Fax: 020 7944 2196

Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk

[SteveG]

My interpretaion of these is that the DFT want the same rules applied to aftermarket as for factory fit for HID so it is reasonable to assume the same is true for LED, they don't specifically differentiate between aftermarket and factory fit in comments about LED. What is also interesting is the use of the word SHOULD instead of MUST.....

It doesnt matter whether SHOULD or MUST is used there is no ambiguity! ;)

The dft guidelines are for an exemption to uk law so if not complied with fully it's quite simple the headlamps would be illegal.

So as it stands the LRO journo's 110 with LED headlamps would be illegal if it doesn't have self levelling of some form and headlamp washers.

[CwazyWabbit]

It doesnt matter whether SHOULD or MUST is used there is no ambiguity! ;)

The dft guidelines are for an exemption to uk law so if not complied with fully it's quite simple the headlamps would be illegal.

So as it stands the LRO journo's 110 with LED headlamps would be illegal if it doesn't have self levelling of some form and headlamp washers.

Fair point, in the documentation we normally deal with at work SHOULD is a 'nice to have' and MUST is mandatory.... but that's the IT industry not the DFT so I'm quite willing to believe the DFT have a different use of the term should.