Building my 109 CSW in Seattle (lots of questions)

[Anderzander]

On 04/01/2018 at 11:34 PM, Seattle109 said:

This may be the stupidest question ever, but how did you fit the round mounts on? (They’re significantly bigger

I’ve seen the sides trimmed with a cutting disc to make them fit - in fact I think Glenn Coyne suggests it in his fitting instructions.

[lo-fi]

I've got my V8 109 running a 1.003 LT230 transfer behind an LT85, which works very well with the 4.7 diffs. The transfer was originally 1.2 ratio, but I converted with an Ashcroft kit, plus part time 4WD. It could still be a little longer for the V8, but would probably be perfect for a 200tdi. 

I also have the 6 cylinder front brakes and servo setup that Fridge mentioned, and I'm very happy with. 

[Snagger]

13 hours ago, Anderzander said:

I’ve seen the sides trimmed with a cutting disc to make them fit - in fact I think Glenn Coyne suggests it in his fitting instructions.

Regarding the engine mount clearance issue, I have 12J/19J mounting brackets on my engine, so I never ran into that problem.  But I have hears from other sources, not just Glencoyne, that a little light grinding sorts the Series mounts out.

[Seattle109]

There's so much good info in this thread! Thank you, thank you to everyone that has contributed. Snagger, next time you get out to Seattle, holler and i'll show you where the good beer is to be had. 

A couple of things that I've learned while calling around in case anyone finds this thread in the future:

The Forbyn bros brake kit looks like a really nice (but $$) solution for 4 wheel disk brakes on a Series. They're based in Northern California. It's ~$3500 for the "Big Brake" Wilwood kit. Not for the faint of heart but thats a lot of stopping power if you're going to be towing and running a heavier rig like I will.

GBR in Salt Lake City can provide diff gears for both Rover and Salisbury axles. Originally I was thinking about switching to 4.11's in conjunction with a 1.2 (Disco) LT230 that I already have in my parts car converted to part time 4wd. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to keeping the current diff ratio at 4.7 and changing the transfer box to 1.003 ? (using the Ashcroft provided gears) 

I've spent significant amounts of time playing with the ratio calculator on Ashcroft's site

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/calc/ratio_calc.html

I've never driven an automatic TDI, I've been assuming that it would be more challenging to keep that little diesel in the sweet spot and the turbo spooling. Does it bolt right up to the tdi with the same stumpy bellhousing? I'm not sure if i really want to hear the answer to this question because today, my wife isn't able to drive the 109 (very few Americans learn how to drive manual). If i made the car that easy to drive then she'd end up "borrowing" it!

While I'm waiting for parts to show up, I started hunting for a "Rock N Roll" bed/Z-bed style replacement for my current second row seating. My wife and I will sleep down below, with our boys up top in the poptop.There are quite a few options as Conversion Vans were a popular thing here but it'd be nice to find one that was designed specifically for the 110/109 interior.  (like a Westfalia/Vw Camper setup. Luckily i'm only 5ft 10 and my wife is also a shorty so there should be enough room behind the rear seats. Whats strange is that I was expecting to find a whole community of folks retrofitting VW westfalia style interiors into 110's and most of the things i've found online are all homebrew efforts. The VW Westfalia folding bed in a VW vanagon Camper was 73" long, I reckon I have 77" in the back of the 109 all the way to the bases for the Front seats. In my mind, a set of swivel bases for the front seats coupled with a 73" folding Z Bed might be the way to go if I can retain storage space under the bed and still have a spot for the fridge. I don't have a perfect spot for it yet, work in progress

 

[Snagger]

I usually go to the Pike St Brewery, Robbie, along with the crew, as that's not far from our hotel.  Not bad, but always keen to see the locals' favourites!

I quite like the idea of the 4.71s and 1.003 transfer box as that gives you very practical high range and extremely low low range, and also saving all the effort and cost of messing about about with the diffs and limiting the cost and work to installing the transmission, which you were already going to do.  The only issue with that is the debate over the strength of the crown wheels, which should be OK unless you're going rock crawling, but pegging the front diff would cure that.  Nige (HybridFromHell) is the frum diff guru and has plenty videos on diffs and shafts if you look up megasquirt.co.uk on youtube.

The auto needs a specific flywheel housing, the flex plate, torque converter and fluid cooler system, so it's not a simple swap, but I'd imagine the parts from 200 and 300Tdi Discoverys would be as easy to come by over there as a short LT77 - I know V8s dominated sales there, but at least the Discoverys sold in reasonable numbers.  The biggest snag may be the length - you'd probably be looking at fitting a Defender bonnet and front panel (use a wire grille and you can call it Stage 1 V8 panelling, so still authentic SIII for the purists).  Apart from giving instantaneous gear changes that prevent loss of momentum off road (ideal for sand, deep mud or hills) and being impossible to stall on steep climbs, the ZF is the toughest gear box fitted as standard to Defenders/Discovery/RRC, and also cushions the rest of the transmission from shock loads, so that protects shafts and diffs well.  I bought a 200 ZF with associated gubbins from a member on here, and the flywheel housing from another, with the hope of doing that mod in the future if it is viable from a tax point of view - I think it'd be a nice drive and certainly quieter, smoother, tougher and more reliable than the other options.  Les Henson fit one in his 200Tdi 90 rebuild, though he hasn't yet replied to my question on how performance is affected by the manual to auto swap.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

you'd probably be looking at fitting a Defender bonnet and front panel

It's a 109, it can't possibly be necessary to ruin it to fit an engine + box in, there's plenty of length to play with.

[Snagger]

You may be right, Fridge - I can't access mine to take any measurements.  In fact, David is still storing the ZF for me because I haven't been able to get back with a car and transport it from Sommerset to home.  I really don't know how much longer that transmission is compared to the Series unit.  There would be plenty of space if willing to move the cross member behind the transmission further aft.

[Seattle109]

I’m currently waging all kinds of battles to retain my Series 3 bonnet and recessed grille  I already had to sacrifice the viscous fan for an electric one (which I hate) and just figured out that I’ll need to either fabricate a spacer above my windshield frame OR switch to a Defender windscreen frame OR source a Dormobile poptop instead of the Alucab. I haven’t heard back from Dormobile yet and we have a local Alucab reseller here in Seattle so at this point a spacer seems the path of least resistance to be able to retain the Series split screen. It’s a lot of hassle for a poptop roof!

@Snagger  The Pike brewery? Oh boy, we can do better than that. If you’re not up to going to far Kells’ serves a respectable pint.  

Getting parts that are not NAS V8 bits is a challenge out West, usually with a big markup. NAS V8 stuff is all over the place. I have 3 generations of Rover V8, 4-5 ZF V8 autoboxes and a few transfer cases sitting in my garage because I don’t have the heart to throw them away!

thanks for the thoughts on the transfer case ratio. I like the idea of retaining the original dif ratio, it makes the project somehow seem significantly simpler (“just dropping in a new gearbox and transfer case”   )  I haven’t looked into low range gearing yet.

i’ve got some time set aside this weekend to play with the 109 a bit. I might even take some photos!

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Seattle109

[FridgeFreezer]

One way to make room is to cut the cowling off the back of the breakfast panel - you can snug a (differently sized) radiator right up against the back of it and gain a fair bit of space. Also, nowt wrong with electric fans, although some reckon TDi's don't like aggressive heat-cycling due to the iron block / ali head combo whereas V8's seem to live happily with them.

On my 109, in part due to fitting PAS, I also replaced the front x-member (that held the steering relay) with 100x50 box section, saving more space in the engine bay. The front remains where the original x-member was but I've gained 2-3" over the old version.

I also (as mentioned) shoved the engine + box further back than standard 4cyl mounts would put them, with a bit of sheet metal work on the bulkhead you can still get to the plugs etc. with no issues.

I'm using a V8 + long-bellhousing (Disco/RR) R380 + lt230 and it fits with plenty of room. My web server seems to be down right now or I'd post a few pictures to show what I'm on about. If you want measurements of anything just shout. At this stage, your #1 tool is the tape measure!

[Jon White]

I had a factory 300tdi auto RRC. Performance was at best, sluggish, but the fuel economy was the biggest issue. It wasn’t a good marriage - I wouldn’t recommend it. 

My 200tdi series, with 5 speed box by comparison, drives very well, and delivers literally double the MPG.

with hindsight the RRC was no more economical than a V8 Petrol one, but a Petrol one would have been a hell of a lot nicer to drive!

the power band for the TDI is just too narrow.

[lo-fi]

You might find this useful:

 

[Anderzander]

On 10/01/2018 at 12:53 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Fridge, you’ve exceeded even your own standards this time.... 😂 

[Daan]

Certainly, the recessed grille is the most important feature of the series 3, so don't loose that. I got it all behind the grille of a SWB series 3 including the intercooler, LHD pas box and viscous fan with a 300 tdi cowling, which was actually extended. I used an LT77S box from a defender, which is about a foot shorter as the discovery/Rangerover. It is just a matter of getting the right parts. Your job is a whole lot easier as well, since you have a LWB.

 

Daan

[AV8R]

I made a whole  new "breakfast"panel, eliminating the part that holds the original radiator. Welded two new brackets  to the front crossmember to support a V8 type Defender radiator. To get enough clearance the battery support was removed (into the LH seat base)

Then a cut-out was made into the inner fender well, like standard on the left hand side. Radiator is placed as much right as possible, clearing the original steering rods and relay on the left side. Open area on the left of the radiator will give room for an oil cooler. Fans are two stage, twin Spal electric on the front.

Picture is looking to the front. Large round black thing is the air filter housing for the 2,6L Ford V6.

[FridgeFreezer]

4-core caterpillar rad sits in front of the PAS box - trimmed the returns off the back of the breakfast panel so only the outer edge has any real depth. Does mean going to bonnet pins or military catches though.

 

Loadsa room - really must tidy my wiring one of these years

 

[Seattle109]

Finally getting around to an update.

i finally managed to get the bigger engine mounts installed.

Wow. What a difference! Gauges are viewable at idle and the rear view mirror is usable!

The vibes were a big part of the fatigue I was experiencing driving this rig. I’m pretty excited about a go forward with the 200tdi now. 

I am temporarily at a pause waiting on production of the forbyn brothers brake kit. Apparently they’re 3 weeks out. Meanwhile, my new shocks and springs should be showing up soon.

the next big decision is whether to do brakes and suspension this year, then spend the winter building up a new galvanized chassis or whether to bite the bullet and do everything at once...

[larna86]

Keeping the front panel is a must - without it, you lose the character of it being a S3. It is possible to do as I did with a S2 panel. Admitly it requires trimming and some cleve fabrication but I did manage to use the Disco radiator and an electric fan.

I did have to go with a different intercooler (Fiat I think) to make fit but it well enough. I used the S3 deluxe bonnet (deep dished) as this fitted better than a S2 bonnet and gave me the extra few inches in height underneath.

Glad to see your project is coming along - keep us al posted 👍