Stage one V8 front half shafts

[uninformed]

On 3/24/2019 at 5:51 AM, Gazzar said:

.

The shafts are a tight interference fit, will be covered in anti seize paste and so shouldn't fettle ….  

 

Why would you put Anti seize paste on something that is half submerged, and fully lubricated by oil? 

[Gazzar]

There was wear on the shafts I removed?

[missingsid]

I just removed my KAM Stage 1 24 spline short shaft with a club hammer after it picked up in the chalice and the vehicle came to a unmovable halt.

The shaft has tried to weld itself to the chalice after 1 mile at 20 mph!

Not happy as it was the part that should have lasted forever and the blue box CV should have been Sacrificial!

[hurbie]

what the hell is a "chalice" (google come's up with a roman drinking cup 🙂 )

[Gremlin]

3 hours ago, missingsid said:

I just removed my KAM Stage 1 24 spline short shaft with a club hammer after it picked up in the chalice and the vehicle came to a unmovable halt.

The shaft has tried to weld itself to the chalice after 1 mile at 20 mph!

Not happy as it was the part that should have lasted forever and the blue box CV should have been Sacrificial!

How did that happen? They rotate together, or I am missing something.

Mine have been in a couple of years now, and it's been fine. No issues, unless I dismantle and find hell. Mine is also on blue box CV's.

 

Grem

[missingsid]

24 minutes ago, Gremlin said:

How did that happen? They rotate together, or I am missing something.

Mine have been in a couple of years now, and it's been fine. No issues, unless I dismantle and find hell. Mine is also on blue box CV's.

 

Grem

I can't see if there is a bearing in it or just the oil seal. I think there is a white metal bearing? The oil seal land on the halfshaft has a gouge out of it. I am going to wipe it clean today so will post a pic.

[Gazzar]

49 minutes ago, hurbie said:

what the hell is a "chalice" (google come's up with a roman drinking cup 🙂 )

I think it's this:

[missingsid]

Swivel ball is the chalice and yes it is a drinking cup. Think Holy Grail.

 

 

[missingsid]

A Chalice.

Another one.

[missingsid]

12 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Possibly:

These must be rears as they are longer than coiler fronts!

[uninformed]

8 hours ago, Gazzar said:

There was wear on the shafts I removed?

If there is the correct type, and amount of lubricant, then the wear you had is not fretting corrosion (dry spline wear). It would be due to a difference in hardness/strength of the mating parts. It could also be amplified by a too loose fit to begin with. 

Adding anti seize will do nothing but contaminate the lubricant. 

[Gazzar]

Okay. I do plan on changing all lubes after I've done some miles.

 

[Gazzar]

32 minutes ago, missingsid said:

These must be rears as they are longer than coiler fronts!

Did say possibly. I've commissioned both.

[uninformed]

1 hour ago, missingsid said:

I can't see if there is a bearing in it or just the oil seal. I think there is a white metal bearing? The oil seal land on the halfshaft has a gouge out of it. I am going to wipe it clean today so will post a pic.

Looks like there should be a oil seal retainer in the inner axle end of the swivel ball, and the oil seal seats in that and runs on the oil seal land on the inner shaft. The CV will be supported by a bronze bush in the inner end of stub axle and the drive flange at hub. The CV supports the inner shaft at that end, the side gear at the other. The inner shaft is located in the CV with a Spring clip, this retains the inner shaft to the CV and the CV to the hub by a circlip on end of stub shaft. 

I personally do not run any axle oil seals, and use the diff to hub as one compartment. I would machine that gouge clean and delete the oil seal. 

[Bowie69]

Anti-scuff paste is used on the input to a Fairey overdrive, which is similar situation, perhaps anti-sieze is just a bad translation.

[missingsid]

46 minutes ago, uninformed said:

Looks like there should be a oil seal retainer in the inner axle end of the swivel ball, and the oil seal seats in that and runs on the oil seal land on the inner shaft. The CV will be supported by a bronze bush in the inner end of stub axle and the drive flange at hub. The CV supports the inner shaft at that end, the side gear at the other. The inner shaft is located in the CV with a Spring clip, this retains the inner shaft to the CV and the CV to the hub by a circlip on end of stub shaft. 

I personally do not run any axle oil seals, and use the diff to hub as one compartment. I would machine that gouge clean and delete the oil seal. 

Interesting, the oil seal area looks OK I think  I will check the chalice inside. I was thinking to weld and regrind it. Or rather get it done.

Other option is to smooth it out and see how it goes.

I have yet to remove the long shaft, the effect of misalignment (that is what I think caused it) will be less.

[uninformed]

23 minutes ago, missingsid said:

Interesting, the oil seal area looks OK I think  I will check the chalice inside. I was thinking to weld and regrind it. Or rather get it done.

Other option is to smooth it out and see how it goes.

I have yet to remove the long shaft, the effect of misalignment (that is what I think caused it) will be less.

The shafts are made of Chromoly and heat treated after machining. Welding is almost not an option. 

[uninformed]

49 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Anti-scuff paste is used on the input to a Fairey overdrive, which is similar situation, perhaps anti-sieze is just a bad translation.

I’m not familiar with that set up and it’s lubrication in use. But when in the history of axle shafts into differentials has there be a requirement for anything other than the correct lubrication. 
 

 

[Gremlin]

Odd damage, as the swivels have a lot of clearance usually, at least on the stage 1 swivels. , Only the seal retainer is in that location. 

Coiler swivels are tight in that location.

 

Grem

[missingsid]

1 hour ago, Gremlin said:

Odd damage, as the swivels have a lot of clearance usually, at least on the stage 1 swivels. , Only the seal retainer is in that location. 

Coiler swivels are tight in that location.

 

Grem

Yes the full story is that it is actually a mix of Imperial RRC parts and KAM RRC shafts and 110 CVs bolted to a Series case. The clearance should have been OK unless you are supposed to open them out? Nothing was said by KAM as they knew what I was doing. The Stage 1 part is that they were prototype shafts.

 

[uninformed]

3 hours ago, missingsid said:

Yes the full story is that it is actually a mix of Imperial RRC parts and KAM RRC shafts and 110 CVs bolted to a Series case. The clearance should have been OK unless you are supposed to open them out? Nothing was said by KAM as they knew what I was doing. The Stage 1 part is that they were prototype shafts.

 

If they are RRC shafts , do they have a spring clip and groove on the CV end? RRC did not and relied on a bronze thrust sleeve at the swivel ball flange to control end float.

[missingsid]

18 minutes ago, uninformed said:

If they are RRC shafts , do they have a spring clip and groove on the CV end? RRC did not and relied on a bronze thrust sleeve at the swivel ball flange to control end float.

That's part of the confusion, they have everything. Bronze bush inboard of the chalice, spring clip and bronze bush at the CV and clip on the drive member plus shims!

I am going to call Nige when he opens shop in the new year.between him and Steve (if he is still there) they should be able to help. I was just too proud to ask before and it was working before I changed to AEU2522 CVs.

 

Which means, talking about it really helps.

 

The shafts were perfect before the CV change! So the 2 miles at 20mph did no damage, it all happened due to the AEU2522s in 10 ft at full left lock which damaged the right shaft, then 100ft at 5 mph killed it!

This probably means the CV was out of alignment with the swivel pins and pushed the shaft into the chalice at the oil seal.

I am pretty sure the old and new CVs are the same size so it can only be the depth of the bush face of the 110 stub axles! I was going to use the RRC stubs but chose the 110 ones but forgot to measure the depths as I intended. It had free play before shimming so I thought nothing of it.

[missingsid]

3 minutes ago, missingsid said:

That's part of the confusion, they have everything. Bronze bush inboard of the chalice, spring clip and bronze bush at the CV and clip on the drive member plus shims!

I am going to call Nige when he opens shop in the new year.between him and Steve (if he is still there) they should be able to help. I was just too proud to ask before and it was working before I changed to AEU2522 CVs.

 

Which means, talking about it really helps.

 

The shafts were perfect before the CV change! So the 2 miles at 20mph did no damage, it all happened due to the AEU2522s in 10 ft at full left lock which damaged the right shaft, then 100ft at 5 mph killed it!

This probably means the CV was out of alignment with the swivel pins and pushed the shaft into the chalice at the oil seal.

I am pretty sure the old and new CVs are the same size so it can only be the depth of the bush face of the 110 stub axles! I was going to use the RRC stubs but chose the 110 ones but forgot to measure the depths as I intended. It had free play before shimming so I thought nothing of it.

Sorry I have hijacked the thread.

[uninformed]

@missingsid these pics may or may not help?

Genuine RRC and LR 110 stub axles. I checked a few points around each and the largest difference I could find between the two was 0.3mm (measured from the stub axle mounting face to the bronze bush thrust face) 

 

 

Genuine RRC inner axle shaft (front) showing bronze thrust sleeve and spline spacer. 

 

 

A 98’ Defender swivel ball showing the machined face for the bronze thrust sleeve to run against. Interestingly by this time I don’t think any LR vehicles were using this set up anymore, (going across the board to the groove, spring clip and stub shaft with shims and circlip to control inward thrust/float) yet they still machined the swivel balls…

 

Now I assume your shafts are a custom length as you stated RRC swivel assemblies on a Series housing. Since the bronze bush doesn’t support the shaft in anyway, it’s not needed if you are using a spring clip inside the CV star. Given you have AEU2522 CVs in a early 110 stub (I assume it’s the early and not later stub axle?) they should be the correct paired lengths. I’m not sure what has happened to allow your inner shaft to come in contact with the throat of the swivel ball??

 

I do have both AEU2522 and R606665 CVs in genuine, but they are packed away and I can’t be bothered digging them out to be honest 😬. I do *THINK* they are the same in the crucial areas , size wise.

Edited December 28, 2021 by uninformed

[missingsid]

1 hour ago, uninformed said:

@missingsid these pics may or may not help?

Genuine RRC and LR 110 stub axles. I checked a few points around each and the largest difference I could find between the two was 0.3mm (measured from the stub axle mounting face to the bronze bush thrust face) 

 

 

Genuine RRC inner axle shaft (front) showing bronze thrust sleeve and spline spacer. 

 

 

A 98’ Defender swivel ball showing the machined face for the bronze thrust sleeve to run against. Interestingly by this time I don’t think any LR vehicles were using this set up anymore, (going across the board to the groove, spring clip and stub shaft with shims and circlip to control inward thrust/float) yet they still machined the swivel balls…

 

Now I assume your shafts are a custom length as you stated RRC swivel assemblies on a Series housing. Since the bronze bush doesn’t support the shaft in anyway, it’s not needed if you are using a spring clip inside the CV star. Given you have AEU2522 CVs in a early 110 stub (I assume it’s the early and not later stub axle?) they should be the correct paired lengths. I’m not sure what has happened to allow your inner shaft to come in contact with the throat of the swivel ball??

 

I do have both AEU2522 and R606665 CVs in genuine, but they are packed away and I can’t be bothered digging them out to be honest 😬. I do *THINK* they are the same in the crucial areas , size wise.

Brilliant it is blowing a gale here in the south so you have saved me from working in it thank you.

0.3mm shouldn't have caused a problem as I had play I shimmed out a little (though that might be the reason in its self) so the other thought is that the swivel pins adjustment was so tight (I didn't check it as a so called professional set it up) that the height of the CV was wrong and forced the shaft into the bottom of the hole? More investigation needed.