200Tdi injector nozzles: Buyer beware!

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

Yes I have. Although I haven't been able to test them out properly due to a fault on my rebuild. I'm hoping to get my 110 up and running at the weekend. 

Good luck! Be interested to hear how they perform if you do manage it.

[monkie]

10 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Good luck! Be interested to hear how they perform if you do manage it.

What I can say from a short static test is that the engine started straight away with no preheat, sounded great and no smoke other than the brief puff of smoke you get on start up. 

[Jocklandjohn]

2 hours ago, monkie said:

What I can say from a short static test is that the engine started straight away with no preheat, sounded great and no smoke other than the brief puff of smoke you get on start up. 

That sounds very positive. Let us know how they go when on the move.

[Eightpot]

I've done a few thousand miles on the DTP nozzles now, no issues at all and running great.  So far I see no reason to spend the extra on bosch. 

[monkie]

@Jocklandjohn as per my de-tuning thread on the Defender forum, I have got the injection pump back to near standard for running in of the rebuilt engine. I've now taken it on a thorough test drive and I can report good performance and clean running with the injectors I refurbished at home with the ebay Bosch nozzles. 

[Jocklandjohn]

Aha! Thanks Monkie - I just got my injectors back from the Bosch dealer on Friday, where they cleaned and fitted a set of the very same nozzles which I picked up off ebay! 

I just replaced the fuel line the week before as it was 30 years old so goodness knows what was in it  (and removed the Eberspacher T-off) and ran it straight to the lift pump from tank. I noticed an immediate and dramatic improvement in power, acceleration and not a lot of smoke either, able to pull up the hill out of town more vigorously too and rolling on in 4th and 5th there was bags more oomph.

Then I got the injectors serviced and refitted them over the weekend and now....I have pretty much similar performance but noticeably more smoke! Its certainly pulling well in all gears on the flat, but EGT's are much higher and noticeable smokiness when car lights are behind me at twilight. When rolling along in 5th I could  clearly see a distinct trail not huge but there behind me and EGT's much higher than previously so the new injectors are delivering more fuel. So today I pulled the top off the FIP and checked the diaphragm (all fine) marked original position and rotated it a few degrees to alter the fuel delivery and a quick run *seemed* to show lower EGT's and smoke and pretty similar power. I'll take it out again tomorrow if I get a chance for a better look.

I'm getting the timing belt done shortly to make sure all is correct, and then make sure pump timing is ok too. Most of the symptoms I've got seem consistent with retarded timing, but I'll let the experts investigsate that.

But good to know these nozzles are working for you - the local Bosch dealer here checked them before installing and they were happy that they were the correct part and they ran them through their tester after fitting and pronounced them spot on.

[Nonimouse]

Did you get any information on the supposed 'uprated' 2.8 TGV injectors?

They are sold as an improvement on fuelling - by a company who sell cheap boost pins. But I have been told there is no difference between standard 300 and 2.8

[TSD]

20 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

But I have been told there is no difference between standard 300 and 2.8

There is a difference, but I don't know the details. The parts catalogue for the International 2.8 has a different part number for the the injector, but the 2.5 catalogue lists the LR part number.

[monkie]

53 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Aha! Thanks Monkie - I just got my injectors back from the Bosch dealer on Friday, where they cleaned and fitted a set of the very same nozzles which I picked up off ebay! 

I just replaced the fuel line the week before as it was 30 years old so goodness knows what was in it  (and removed the Eberspacher T-off) and ran it straight to the lift pump from tank. I noticed an immediate and dramatic improvement in power, acceleration and not a lot of smoke either, able to pull up the hill out of town more vigorously too and rolling on in 4th and 5th there was bags more oomph.

Then I got the injectors serviced and refitted them over the weekend and now....I have pretty much similar performance but noticeably more smoke! Its certainly pulling well in all gears on the flat, but EGT's are much higher and noticeable smokiness when car lights are behind me at twilight. When rolling along in 5th I could  clearly see a distinct trail not huge but there behind me and EGT's much higher than previously so the new injectors are delivering more fuel. So today I pulled the top off the FIP and checked the diaphragm (all fine) marked original position and rotated it a few degrees to alter the fuel delivery and a quick run *seemed* to show lower EGT's and smoke and pretty similar power. I'll take it out again tomorrow if I get a chance for a better look.

I'm getting the timing belt done shortly to make sure all is correct, and then make sure pump timing is ok too. Most of the symptoms I've got seem consistent with retarded timing, but I'll let the experts investigsate that.

But good to know these nozzles are working for you - the local Bosch dealer here checked them before installing and they were happy that they were the correct part and they ran them through their tester after fitting and pronounced them spot on.

I really think you need to get your cam and pump timing double checked as a starting point from what you have said and go from there. As I understand, it doesn't take much movement either way on pump timing to have profound effects. Only a tooth or so out and it won't even fire. 

I predict that once you have a new belt fitted with the cam and injection pump timing spot on you will report a big improvement. Keep us up dated. 

EDIT: one more thing to note is that on my rebuild I replaced the cam shaft. The lobes on the old one were worn. I don't have a comparison as I wasn't running the engine prior to the rebuild but the new Camshaft must have helped my engine out. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by monkie

[Jocklandjohn]

52 minutes ago, monkie said:

I really think you need to get your cam and pump timing double checked as a starting point from what you have said and go from there. As I understand, it doesn't take much movement either way on pump timing to have profound effects. Only a tooth or so out and it won't even fire. 

I predict that once you have a new belt fitted with the cam and injection pump timing spot on you will report a big improvement. Keep us up dated. 

EDIT: one more thing to note is that on my rebuild I replaced the cam shaft. The lobes on the old one were worn. I don't have a comparison as I wasn't running the engine prior to the rebuild but the new Camshaft must have helped my engine out. 

Yes thats my thinking too. So basically all the stuff I've just done is aimed at getting a 'level playing field' - new tank, new fuel pick up, new fuel line, new lift pump, new injector nozzles and service, so now all thats done the timing of engine and pump will be pretty much the last 'normal' things to consider. (FIP was fully overhauled  a couple of years ago so I'm assuming its ok).  I have to say performance after the new fuel line was fitte is really good, but the hill pulling is still problematic - going to adjust boost pressure a tad - and try to source a twin barbed leak off banjo from a 12J injector as Eightpot recommended to get boost pressure at the pump.

[monkie]

Definitely something not right as mine accelerates up hills, steep ones at that. I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it when the timing belt is sorted. 

[Nonimouse]

13 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Yes thats my thinking too. So basically all the stuff I've just done is aimed at getting a 'level playing field' - new tank, new fuel pick up, new fuel line, new lift pump, new injector nozzles and service, so now all thats done the timing of engine and pump will be pretty much the last 'normal' things to consider. (FIP was fully overhauled  a couple of years ago so I'm assuming its ok).  I have to say performance after the new fuel line was fitte is really good, but the hill pulling is still problematic - going to adjust boost pressure a tad - and try to source a twin barbed leak off banjo from a 12J injector as Eightpot recommended to get boost pressure at the pump.

After fitting the nozzles, did you have the injectors calibrated ?

[Eightpot]

17 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

I'm getting the timing belt done shortly to make sure all is correct, and then make sure pump timing is ok too. Most of the symptoms I've got seem consistent with retarded timing, but I'll let the experts investigsate that.

Very easy to make a quick adjustment on the timing, so long as whoever fitted the belt last centralised the pump nose/sprocket - 

Take pump sprocket cover off, rotate engine till you can slide a timing pin or suitable drill bit in the timing slot, hold a spanner steady on the big nut, crack the three 10mm sprocket lock nuts, then rotate the big nut 1 degree at a time (1mm or so movement on end of spanner), tighten sprocket lock nuts, REMOVE TIMING PIN & test. Turn big nut clockwise to advance, anti to retard.  There's only a few degrees adjustment available so you can't get in too much trouble. 

If the pump/sprocket weren't centralised theres not always enough rotation available on the sprocket to make much difference. 

 

[Jocklandjohn]

4 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

After fitting the nozzles, did you have the injectors calibrated ?

The nozzles were done by my local Bosch dealer (and well-respected engine builders) and run through their test kit so I'm assuming that would be part of the fitting and setup.

[Jocklandjohn]

3 hours ago, Eightpot said:

Very easy to make a quick adjustment on the timing, so long as whoever fitted the belt last centralised the pump nose/sprocket - 

Take pump sprocket cover off, rotate engine till you can slide a timing pin or suitable drill bit in the timing slot, hold a spanner steady on the big nut, crack the three 10mm sprocket lock nuts, then rotate the big nut 1 degree at a time (1mm or so movement on end of spanner), tighten sprocket lock nuts, REMOVE TIMING PIN & test. Turn big nut clockwise to advance, anti to retard.  There's only a few degrees adjustment available so you can't get in too much trouble. 

If the pump/sprocket weren't centralised theres not always enough rotation available on the sprocket to make much difference. 

 

Thanks for that, yes the actual adjustment seems easy enough, my priority was to have the local experts actually change the belt and make sure the whole engine timing is on-the-nose and ensure with their experience that all is looking ok in there, then I can easily take it from there. They've even offered to temporarily fit a spare FIP if we cant get to the root of the issue and then I can compare performance of mine with a known good one.

[youngengineer]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:17 AM, Eightpot said:

Very easy to make a quick adjustment on the timing, so long as whoever fitted the belt last centralised the pump nose/sprocket - 

Take pump sprocket cover off, rotate engine till you can slide a timing pin or suitable drill bit in the timing slot, hold a spanner steady on the big nut, crack the three 10mm sprocket lock nuts, then rotate the big nut 1 degree at a time (1mm or so movement on end of spanner), tighten sprocket lock nuts, REMOVE TIMING PIN & test. Turn big nut clockwise to advance, anti to retard.  There's only a few degrees adjustment available so you can't get in too much trouble. 

If the pump/sprocket weren't centralised theres not always enough rotation available on the sprocket to make much difference. 

 

I thought turning it clockwise would retard the timing?

[Eightpot]

On 2/26/2022 at 1:56 PM, youngengineer said:

I thought turning it clockwise would retard the timing?

Turning the timing sprocket clockwise would retard it, but remember when adjusting the timing, its the pump spindle that's being rotated and the sprocket stays still - effectively turning the sprocket anti-clockwise. 

[Maverik]

New injector nozzles - serviced by a specialist - lots of smoke afterwards - sounds very much like my experience, swaped back some good old injectors and it stopped the smoking and got better performance.