ideal length of wheel stud? need measurements (Wolf rim/alloys)

[twodoorgaz]

Hi everyone.

 

The old Wolf rim/longer vs standard stud topic has been covered a lot and I think I've read the bulk of the threads on this. Gist is, on standard wheel studs there isn't quite enough thread to fill the nut but its OK as LR build them that way (and spec a larger torque figure to compensate). You can fit FRC7577 (60mm) studs but they're really very long (ben hur) and you couldn't switch back to alloy wheels as the capped nuts would bottom out before the wheel is tight.

 

But if you aren't happy with the look of the nuts on standard studs when fitting wolf wheels (like myself), then what would be the ideal length? What length would allow full thread engagement when fitting wolfs but would still allow you to fit alloy wheels?

 

I have a 2010 Puma 90 (so discs all round) and am in this predicament - it came with boost alloys from the factory and I have a set of genuine wolf rims ready to go on. The car is about to have some axle work done and it wouldn't be a great effort to change the studs hat the same time (have a press). I also have access to a machine shop - so shortening a set of FRC7577 (60mm) studs wouldn't be a great issue (and the price of them has come down significantly). But what length to go to?

 

My ideal would be to have studs that when fitted with wolf rims and torqued to a sensible level (not the massive 170 that LR suggest) that around 1-1.5 thread is left exposed and I'm hoping that that would be short enough to still allow me to switch back to the Boost alloys if the mood strikes.

 

Does anyone have any accurate measurements for how much longer the standard 39mm studs would need to be to allow this? Happy to share findings.

 

With stock being 39mm, I'm guessing around 44mm would be perfect for the rims - would just need to do some experiments to make sure the alloy wheel nuts would still work without bottoming out. Any help on this OCD mini-project would be very welcome.

Edited June 19, 2021 by twodoorgaz

[uninformed]

It is my understanding that if a nut is made from the same or equivalent (strength etc) material then nut length needs to be a minimum of 0.65 x the bolt/stud diameter, as long as there is a MINIMUM of one full thread (right around) protruding through the nut. The lesser the nut or hole material the greater the thread engagement needs to be. Ie HT bolt into mild steel 1.5x diameter.
 

Defender wheel studs are M16 (16mm) diameter, the factory wheel nut is ~15mm long at full size of hex (not counting the reduced material area of the taper that seats the rim) 

Given we don’t know the material of either stud or nut, I prefer full engagement with 1-2 full threads protruding 

Now since this sub forum includes the earlier 90/110s, those vehicles had hubs with  thicker material at the WMS while using the same length studs as the later Defenders, meaning less stud stick out. Fine on the factory rims, but mount a 130/Wolf style rim on a early hub and you have less nut/thread engagement than the factory allowed for , even with the high torque requirement. 
 

Im running early hubs on my build and have the longer studs for them. 

[western]

I run Wolf's on the standard studs & nuts never had a nut come loose since the wolf steels were fitted, I torque the to the LR rated figure they issued for MOD 90,110 with the same studs & wheels. So if its safe enough for MOD vehicles which get heavily laden & used in all types of terrain then it's good enough for me. MOT tester has never mentioned the nut engagement & neither did VOSA inspectors when I got pulled in Truro a few years ago. 

 

Other option is to buy a longer stud, fit it to hub, refit the wolf wheel & torque up, the measure how much thread protrudes, then do the same with the boost wheel & nut, I would think the alloy wheel nut would go on & not bottom out on the thread simply because the alloy nut is that much longer than the steel wheel nuts or use a vernier caliper to get a internal measurement of the alloy wheel nut & shorten the longer stud to suit 

[uninformed]

@western what vintage hubs?

[western]

1989 110 fronts all round as I converted to rear disc in May 2013

[uninformed]

54 minutes ago, western said:

1989 110 fronts all round as I converted to rear disc in May 2013

I’d be interested to know what wheels were factory fitted to the 127/130 that came with those hubs (up to near end of 200Tdi) . Would be interesting to see the thickness of material used etc as when most people state “the Factory did it”, referring to 130/Wolf rims on standard wheel studs, the evidence is of the later hubs (last of 200Tdi onwards) with a bit more stud stick out. 
 

 

[western]

The 127 had the wider 6.5 wheels think they are or were the same a Series 2 & 3, 1 ton wheels or the pre wolf as fitted to the 127 military Rapier tractor vehicles. 

I have a full set of wolf hub studs FRC5926 here they are the same length as my pre Defender studs, 

[uninformed]

50 minutes ago, western said:

The 127 had the wider 6.5 wheels think they are or were the same a Series 2&3 1 ton wheels or the pre wolf as fitted to the 227 military Rapier tractor vehicles. 

I have a full set of wolf hub studs FRC5926 here they are the same length as my pre Defender studs, 

Yeah the 127 definitely had 6.5” wide rims but it’s the centre material thickness and profile that I’m interested in (compared to the standard 5.5” rim of the time)

 

The Wolf or XD came out circa ~94 so they would (I assume) have 300Tdi hubs, and like I said, same length as the early 90/110 but it’s the hub thickness that changes stick out

[uninformed]

Just pulled two hubs out of the parts bin, early 110 and later Defender 300Tdi, there is about 2.5-3mm difference in wheel stud stick out (early hub having less)

not much but definitely not best practice considering the longer of the two is already short with the thicker centre HD rims.
 

Interesting LR felt they needed longer studs for certain applications.

 

[Retroanaconda]

Yes the studs are all the same (save the extra long ones you mention) but the early hubs are thicker. Stud protrusion is about 23mm on the early hubs compared to 25mm on the later ones. This gives full thread engagement on the later hubs but about a thread short on the early ones.

There’s no issue with the later hubs as the thread is fully engaged and LR sold them in that guise, however I’m not sure whether they ever sold the Wolf/HD rim fitted to the early hub (pre-1994). Practically I and many others have run it like that for many years with no issue but it would be a case of personal comfort.

In terms of extra thread length I would suggest if you add around 4/5mm to the standard length studs then that would put you roughly where you would like to be.

Wolf/HD fitted to early hub with one thread short of full engagement:

And fitted to later hub, with fully engaged thread:

 

It’s worth also noting that not all wheel nuts are created equal - there are at least two depths as per below, though there’s only 1mm or so in it.

[western]

The longer studs were fitted to fully armoured vehicles IIRC. Which had much thicker probably 10mm or more  nave plates in their monster heavy duty wheels

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

Yes the studs are all the same (save the extra long ones you mention)

there are different stud lengths. I’d need to check the part numbers but my rear axle (early disco or RRC imperial axle) fitted the wolf wheels with the studs either flush or a thread or so proud. The fronts were the usual just under the face of the nut. 

The studs are actually two different lengths. You’ve got a 39/40mm and a 45mm from memory. The slightly longer ones are I think disco ones. Will grab the part number from the workshop later. 

[landroversforever]

Thats an early front hub that would normally have the end of the stud below the nut face, with the 45mm stud at the bottom and the stupidly long wolf ones at the top. 

[uninformed]

28 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Thats an early front hub that would normally have the end of the stud below the nut face, with the 45mm stud at the bottom and the stupidly long wolf ones at the top. 

Good work! And definitely keen to know the part number of the 45mm version. 

[uninformed]

looks like RUF500010 is the # for the 46mm studs, hopefully others can confirm.

[Retroanaconda]

They look like 39mm if this photo is correct:

https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/97341/372/wheel_stud_knock_through_defender___range_rover_classic___discovery_1

I wasn’t aware of a 45mm stud. Ross - I presume that’s a Wolf/HD wheel in your photo?

[Retroanaconda]

Ah, seems it’s quite simple actually. 45mm studs here:

https://www.jgs4x4.co.uk/defender-discovery-wheel-stud-pack-of-5-studs-45mm/

[uninformed]

22 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

Ah, seems it’s quite simple actually. 45mm studs here:

https://www.jgs4x4.co.uk/defender-discovery-wheel-stud-pack-of-5-studs-45mm/

Not simple at all....

 

doing some searching , here and out there, there are retail listings for RUF500010 showing 39mm and 46mm. There are also listings for FRC6137 for both lengths. FRC6317 has been listed on this forum as the 46mm but a member bought them and got 39mm.....

 

Im starting to wonder if some people measure the overall and some measure under head length?

 

 

[Snagger]

If I remember correctly, the Wolf studs I bought (LR Gen Parts) were 12mm longer than the studs originally fitted to my early 110 rear axle - I had to tap the threads of the alloy wheel nuts deeper even though I was fitting the 6mm nave of the drums as slim spacers.

[western]

Standard vehicle & wolf studs FRC5926 I just cut this pack open for this photo. 

 

 

 

 

Also now know as RUF000020

https://www.jgs4x4.co.uk/defender-discovery-wheel-stud-x5/

[landroversforever]

FRC6137 are the slightly longer ones. Apologies, I totally forgot to measure them! But its the bag the above stud came out of. RUF000020/FRC5926 are the shorter ones, as used in the front axle of an early 90/110.

[western]

My 110 upto 1986 parts book shows FRC6137 front & rear hub stud

the later book 110 1987 on [August 1994 issue] shows 

FRC6137 Front 

FRC6137 Rear drum brakes

FRC5926 Front from chassis number LA930435 -- 110 & LA930546 -- 130.

FRC5926 Rear disc brakes. from the same chassis number range shown above.

so from the above my studs must be FRC6137, which are the same length as the FRC5926 items, I know this because long before I swapped my rear drum to disc, I bought the FRC5926 & removed 1 stud from rear drum hub & fitted a FRC5926 but it wasn't any longer with the hub/drum/wolf wheel fitted, so I put the original stud back in, the difference in stud & nut engagement was down to the thickness of the drum face & the thicker wolf wheel centre.

[landroversforever]

2 minutes ago, western said:

so from the above my studs must be FRC6137, which are the same length as the FRC5926 items, I know this because long before I swapped my rear drum to disc, I bought the FRC5926 & removed 1 stud from rear drum hub & fitted a FRC5926 but it wasn't any longer with the hub/drum/wolf wheel fitted, so I put the original stud back in, the difference in stud & nut engagement was down to the thickness of the drum face & the thicker wolf wheel centre.

Not in my experience. Genuine FRC5926 ones I sent back when I worked out the FRC6137 ones are a touch longer. As I'd ordered the 'correct' ones based on my axle numbers, saw the slightly longer ones and ditched the shorter FRC5926 ones so I had another set of the longer ones to go in the front axle too.

[uninformed]

@western in your picture, is the stud ~39mm overall length?

 

 Seems there is no definitive answer. Ill be asking the supplier to confirm the actual stud length.

Edited June 19, 2021 by uninformed

[western]

Stud is measured from the end face to end of the thread so yes 39mm 

 

I haven't measured the FRC6137 studso can't definitely say what length they are. FRC5926 has the embossed line across the thread end face, earlier one don't. But the thread & nuts are common.