200Tdi rebuild - Disaster!

[Maverik]

I have to say I really feel for you on this one - but don't give in! channel your frustration to get the job fixed.

I've had a few similar instance 1) a few years ago now I helped a mate do his clutch on his D1, we got it all back together and found that the clutch wouldn't disengage, so in the same day we re-pulled the engine out and found the clutch plate had jammed on the gearbox input shaft, it was a long day and night! 2) rather more recently my wee paper rag sucked into the engine after a relatively straight forward timing belt change... 

 

[Nonimouse]

Last year, I spent weeks trying to avoid the fact that I had a creeping cam bearing - rebuilt the bottom end, replaced the oil pump, removed the turbo and fitted a new cartridge etc. Everything, but nothing worked. By this time I had run out of time and money. A friend gave me a replacement 'Goldseal' engine and another friend helped me swap it in - except he did most of the work becuase I had no time left (last year was crazy busy for me)

Over a year later, I still haven't had the time to even look at the origional engine, so the same friend who fitted it is going to spend some of his month's leave next year, re-building it.

These things happen. It's carp, but they happen. The great thing is that the engine is a well known and documented make - most parts are available and it's 'old school'.

We feel your pain

 

[monkie]

2 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Pump failure is just a total loss of pressure

This is a very interesting post, thank you. 

I would say from my observations that I had total loss of pressure. But as you can see in my pictures the oil pump seemed have been working... As far as I can tell with it in bits. 

On some pictures I have seen, there appears to be a ball as part of the pressure relief valve. Mine didn't have one and I didn't put one in with the rebuild kit. I had a plunger, spring and retaining screw. Could I have put the plunger in backwards on a moment of madness as Western asked? I don't think I did as to me it looks like it should only go in one way. 

If I had put it in backwards, as embarrassing as that would be, it would give me the definitive smoking gun I'm looking for. 

So, which way round should you put the steel plunger? 

[Nonimouse]

https://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/200tdi-oil-pump-11127-c.asp

Is the best diagram I have found

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

https://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/200tdi-oil-pump-11127-c.asp

Is the best diagram I have found

That's the one I've seen but mine didn't have the ball in the Valve when I took it apart and the rebuild kit I got from turner's didn't contain a ball. 

This is what I got and fitted:

 

[Nonimouse]

I thought the ball was an essential part....

[David Sparkes]

It seems the same plunger was used for the earlier engines, they list the ball as a separate part, 3748, if you want to add one.

I have no experience of the 200TDi

Edit.
Having now found my '200TDi' manuals I note that the parts diagram of the oil pump shows the ball BUT it is not numbered or identified in the text.
The workshop manual, covering the reassembly of the oil pump, shows the basic plunger and spring, but NOT the ball.

This suggests to me that, for some reason, LR did not include the ball in the 200TDi. Perhaps they wanted 'some' oil flow, even when the plunger was held closed.

Regards.

[cackshifter]

I have just seen these pages in my Range Rover WSM. It doesn't look like a ball is present nor is it mentioned in the assembly instructions. I guess Turners would have a definitive view.

 

[monkie]

Thank you for that. I managed to remove the head, the crank pulley and front cover before I left for work this morning. I now just have the pistons, crank, cam, followers and timing case to remove before I'm back to a block and a load of bits... Again!

I'm away with work now for a few days so didn't have access to my workshop manual so those pictures have done me a huge favour. 

This is exactly how I assembled the oil pressure relief valve (plunger with solid side in first, then spring located into the plunger followed by securing inplace with the cap and copper washer), so on one hand I now know I didn't make a silly mistake there but on the other I don't yet have that definitive answer... 

 

[Bowie69]

I think if you had had a problem with the pump, you would see damage in many other places.

I'm thinking, and hopeful, that the damage will be limited to that big end and the rest of the engine will be fine -indicating the problem is either parts, clearances or assembly of that big end.

Fingers crossed.

The scuffing you see on the other bearings are probably just as a result of the drop in oil pressure.

[monkie]

6 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I think if you had had a problem with the pump, you would see damage in many other places.

I'm thinking, and hopeful, that the damage will be limited to that big end and the rest of the engine will be fine -indicating the problem is either parts, clearances or assembly of that big end.

Fingers crossed.

The scuffing you see on the other bearings are probably just as a result of the drop in oil pressure.

I think so far this is the best fit with what I have observed. The bores look absolutely fine, no scuffing or scoring at all, just the lovely cross hatch that I did back when everyone else was watching the football! 

I shall explain what has happened to the engineering shop when I take the crankshaft in and see what they say. 

What is the maximum a 200tdi crank can be taken down, is it 20 thou? I seem to think the big ends are already down to 10 thou... I'll have to check as I can't remember. 

[monkie]

8 hours ago, Maverik said:

I have to say I really feel for you on this one - but don't give in! channel your frustration to get the job fixed.

I've had a few similar instance 1) a few years ago now I helped a mate do his clutch on his D1, we got it all back together and found that the clutch wouldn't disengage, so in the same day we re-pulled the engine out and found the clutch plate had jammed on the gearbox input shaft, it was a long day and night! 2) rather more recently my wee paper rag sucked into the engine after a relatively straight forward timing belt change... 

 

Well said. I've got over the shocked and anger phase quite quickly. As you say, I am now in the focused stage of let's sort the problem and get it built back up and put into the 110.

[western]

I don't remember removing or refitting a steel ball in my oil pump & I used the same kit as you have from Turners. 

That maybe a old diagram from a 2.5NA, TD or petrol engine they all use the same oil pump. 

[monkie]

I think there are some small differences. The pump on my 200Tdi has the strainer fixed in place with a bracket whereas IIRC on the 19J it could pivot in the sump. 

[western]

TD has a strainer bracket as well, according to my parts book. 

[monkie]

9 hours ago, western said:

TD has a strainer bracket as well, according to my parts book. 

I just checked my photos I took of my 19J and you are right. I must have got it mixed up with my tractor engine. 

[Maverik]

Just read this which is something to check. 2nd paragraph.

The oil seal its talking about is ERR532 which is part of the oil pump/skew gear assembly.

 

[western]

On 10/4/2021 at 6:15 PM, monkie said:

 

What is the maximum a 200tdi crank can be taken down, is it 20 thou? I seem to think the big ends are already down to 10 thou... I'll have to check as I can't remember. 

Main bearings can go to 030 thou, Turners list Std. 010, 020 & 030

big end [conrod] are Std, 010, 020 or 030 

 

 

[monkie]

6 hours ago, western said:

Main bearings can go to 030 thou, Turners list Std. 010, 020 & 030

big end [conrod] are Std, 010, 020 or 030 

 

 

Brilliant, thank you. 

[western]

You'll read in my engine rebuild post, my crank had some scoring on number 1 big end IIRC, I had the machining place take it down to 010 thou underside on mains & big ends. 

[monkie]

52 minutes ago, western said:

You'll read in my engine rebuild post, my crank had some scoring on number 1 big end IIRC, I had the machining place take it down to 010 thou underside on mains & big ends. 

I have been rereading your 200tdi rebuild thread and I was particularly interested by the picture you posted of the bearing shells right down to the copper. 

I'll have to review the shells on my tdi as I know either the big ends or the mains are already 010 thou which is why I asked how far you can take the crank under size. 

[western]

only the lower half of my main bearing shells & Number 5 main upper were down to the base copper, the 1,2,3,4 upper still had a good amount of white metal coating on them. all the big ends shells were down to base copper to, my oil pressure before the rebuild was about 20 to 15 psi when hot after a decent drive. 

[monkie]

Partial good news. The engine is now stripped to the bare block. 

Camshaft and cam bearings are fine. 

The problem must be as @Bowie69 suggested: faulty/incorrectly installed big end bearing shells on piston #2.

They have got hot and delaminated. This is now is the learning exercise to ensure no repeat event. Given I believe I fitted all the bearings in exactly the way (secured into the con rods and caps using the tabs, pre oiled and torqued to the setting listed) and only #2 failed: I have 2 questions... 

1- How could I have fitted this one incorrectly to cause this to happen? 

2- How could the bearing be faulty to cause this to happen (King brand supplied by Turners)? 

EDIT: I spoke to the engineering shop (the crank will be dropped off later today). I asked their opinion, they suggested too tight a bearing. I will be getting some plastigage this time to check. I'll also reinspect the conrod to check it isn't damaged.

[Bowie69]

Well I think in the scheme of things that is all really quite good news.

As you say, plastigauge this time, or measure with bore micrometers to see what the clearances are, and fingers crossed you should be OK.

As for what caused it... I guess the engineering shop will be able to tell you better than us. Have they seen the shells?

Any dirt behind the shell could make it too tight, or as you say potentially an ovalled conrod, really not much else.

[monkie]

I will take the shells and conrod with me when I drop off the crank later on so they can see the full picture. I was wondering "had I got confused and measured the crank wrong and ordered the wrong size bearings?". I double checked and no I hadn't done that; also if that was the case and all 4 were tight surely they would all have been chewed up, the rest (inc main shells) do have some slight scuffing (I assume from the drop off in pressure) but other than that they are fine and no copper is visable.