Improving 110 brakes on a budget

[Little mule]

Good morning snagger 

first please excuse the damn typing with this spell check it sucks and sometimes wont let you spell what you want lol.

Second please for give of the slight hijack of the thread I’ll try my best to stay on topic. 

A little back ground of my self , I have been working on rover for well over 40 years and still learn something new everyday.

in NA most of the old series truck were well past their best before dates lol. 
there are guys like me and the rover clubs slowly reviving them with help from us old guys who know about them .

I had a shop I opened when I retired from the military with 25 years of service and a body that’s worn out busted up squeaks and is very hard to start at times and have some body repairs from time to time lol. Sounds like a rover lol.

I actually had to shut the shop down because of flooding (12 times in 10 years)and the work load of people wanting work done and my body just couldn’t keep up. They wanted their truck fixed like yesterday . They were told there was at least a week or two wait for me to even see the truck let alone fix it . 

I also know the brake systems you speak of as we had every kind in Canada until the 70,s when import banning came into effect (damn emissions)…

I have to admit I did have one series truck that the brakes were fantastic on was a 88 with 109 brakes on it had a Chevy  brake master .

In the early days we were only buying our parts from a rover guy here in Canada and he was a rip off And they were junk parts .

But when the internet came we were able to get a much needed better parts supplier .

today I just putter in the shop and pretty much only work on disco,RRC, LR3, and so on because the stealers don’t want to work on them just sell them .they use the excuse that their scanners won’t go back as far as a 2004 so there for we can’t scan the truck to find a problem but we can sell you a new truck lol.

I have a 1994 300 90 in the shop now and the brakes are ok the set up was the small booster , the big 110 Callipers and the regular disc in the back . It’s a gray market Rest of world truck

Some parts don’t line up or are not correct with the parts manual and it’s a guessing game where the parts came from and off of what truck .The truck should have drums on the back but has a disco axle under the back according to the axle serial number . 
the front calliper were not changed when they did the brakes in Germany and the 110 big Callipers are no good because the retaining rings for the piston seals are all rusted off and the calliper is too rusted for the retaining ring to stay in place . When I say rusted they are like an old series truck with a rotted out frame and it’s just slag rust. I’ll put new disco ones on instead and the truck should stop fine but a really good road test will let me know .

Oh did I mention they spent 25K getting the body work all redone painted inside and out and then they wanted a new radiator and intercooler and the timing belt . I told him not expect any scratches lol it’s well covered in card board.

the front sale looks like it came out of a later truck because the diff splines were 24 and had the CV joints out of a early 110 with upper bushed swivel balls instead of bearings and no ABS . The diff was ready to break as the center pin was moving 1/8 or an inch side ways in the housing . Time for another one lol.

14 years ago I built a 109 ex military truck with a 200 Tdi conversion and it was left hand drive .it still had all of its drum brakes on it right now .I replaced all the lines and wheel cylinders and linings with a new TRW master and trey work the very best with no pumping of the peddle to get a firm peddle . 

the 200 vacuum pump worked very well and with the factory brakes renewed and set up properly. Because the truck was a exmilitery 109 and a 2.25 5MB diesel the brake system came with an extra vacuum reservoir . I reused it with the 200 and the brakes were comparable to discs . 

The truck was sold again to some A hole drove it fast and as hard as he could for 550 miles and broke the crank shaft

When the crank pulley and harmonic balancer bolt came loose and the pulleys wobbled and vibrated it broke both key ways on the crankshaft and took chunks or steel out of the pulleys them selves (timing gear and harmonic balancer)

i had a crank ready to go on the shelf and had the machine shop put the crank into the milling machine and they made the key way longer so that both the timing gear and harmonic balancer now have a full length key way each.
it was a absolute mess when it got here . The belt ended being 1.5 tooth out of timing just enough the let the valves hit the head . I’m so glad it didn’t destroy the valve train . I should have it back together soon .

As for the hybrid engine I’m looking at building a 200/300 the head is a brand new MWM head off an 2.8 international . I ported and polished it and I’ll be clamping it down  with a ARP head stud kit using MLS head gaskets . MLS here in N/A are a very very good head gasket company which is mostly used in the racing industry because of the clamping ability and ease of install plus’s you can add or subtract the thickness very easily if it’s needed . 

I will also be using a ARP head stud kit from ARP . The  kit will help clamp it down to the block much more evenly and with more force. The gaskets are much better than the stamped steel ones or the composite gaskets we normally use on our rovers . I have the rotating assembly balanced and the fly wheel lightened up so the will pick up a little speed when I rev the engine up . I want to use the 200 bottom end because I believe it’s much stronger than a 300 having a support ladder rack mounted to the bottom of the block .

the brake vacuum pump will either be a factory 200 pump or a electric BMW type . The electric one make 25 inches of mercury all the time and it’s quiet so to speak lol it is a rover as the rover boosters get older they are getting hard to find and the inner bladder will most likely if it’s from a series truck . 

I will be using vented discs on the front with plain discs on the back . The front Callipers will be the huge ones from the 110 with stainless pistons . The rear will have the same treatment with stainless pistons and ceramic coated to help reduce heat and possible brake fade .

my master will be a TRW 110 type and a RRC factory brake booster which is huge compared to the big flat disco used on the factory D1 and the 90/110 later models with ABS.

the two door RRC had the biggest booster of all rover types and gave you lots of volume when it was needed and it would almost throw you out the windshield if you hit the brakes hard enough lol.
the booster is fully rebuildable including the inner bladder where as the defender and disco1, can not be rebuilt (the inner bladder). The bolt pattern on the booster is the same as the series and early 90/110 its drum brakes .

When they changed the boosters used primarily on the later 90/110 and disco1 when they went to disc brakes they changed the diameter and depth of the booster . the booster has a bolt pattern that’s also on a 45 degree angle . Unless you want to do some cutting and drilling you might get it to fit so you can use a master cylinder off a earlier truck where the bolt pattern is straight across on the 9 and 3 o’clock position . This will allow you to also use the much bigger master cylinder which allows more fluid volume to disc brake Callipers for better clamping force between the pads and rotors .

I would have to look but I think the RRC booster will fit a disco peddle tower with no really big issues . 
I believe it was between 1993/4 to 1998 the disco 1 had the same brake peddle towers as the RRC before they switched the RRC to ABS/HDC and traction control with power brakes .I believe only used on the last long wheel base RRC before the P38 came into play in 1995 at least here in NA.

Tony 

[Snagger]

The servo on my 109 is the smaller diameter but deep cylinder with a slightly conical front.  It has just two rear studs to secure it to the RR/Discovery bulkhead (no pedal tower), slightly off my assumed 45 degrees, so that resulted in the master cylinder being a few degrees rotated to one side once mounted to the adaptor plate on the SIII pedal box.  
 

A new head with those studs will hopefully cope, but I’d still be cautious with that much boost.  Fingers crossed for you.  I think MLS head gaskets are better than the composite type and don’t understand Mike at Britrest’s dislike for them.  An electric brake vacuum pump would reduce engine breathing, especially if you have any small leaks in the servo system or have to use the brakes a lot.

I can imagine maintenance being harder overseas, especially prior to online ordering, but where decent quality parts of the correct spec were available, then people should have had little trouble with the standard brakes or steering.  It’s when people cut corners, ignoring maintenance or using unsuitable parts that problems arise.

[Little mule]

If you’re using an adaptor plate you should be able to oval the holes a bit and help line the master cylinder up a little better . When I installed the GM truck master cylinder to my series peddle tower I had to oval the mounting towards each other because the bolt pattern was a little wider than the rover . The mounting tabs were wide enough to allow me to oval them and not interfere with washers and nuts to secure it to the peddle tower . I also had to adjust the push rod attached the the brake peddle . I had to lengthen it so it had the proper amount of play with the master cylinder piston. I think it was a 1/16 of a inch not sure on that though long time  ago lol.

I won’t be running full boost all the time . I have a boost gauge and a in cab adjuster so I can back off the boost if needed . I’m not out racing this thing lol just having a little fun and on a fresh full engine rebuild I’ll need to make sure the engine is well broken in before I start really start pushing the go peddle lol. 
depending on how much rust is in the coolant cavities from the previous owner and it sitting so long I have brand new cylinder liners .

they can take out the old liners and clean out the cavities and make sure the block is clean and rust free . 
if they look at the block and see there’s no need to clean out any or non of the rust I’ll use the factory liners. 
the engine shop has a 200 litre barrel they put engine blocks in and use a low voltage charge and it cleans out the rust from the block and they look fantastic when they come of the barrel . If they need to I’ll have them clean it that way and install new liners .

Tony 

[Snagger]

That electrolysis is a good way to clean out the coolant passageways as well as the bolt holes and will get much more out than the limited access blasting gets.

[Little mule]

I don’t think it’s too rusty in the coolant passages but they will know when they knock out the freeze plugs and the head removed .

Tony 

[tuko]

For my part, one step forward and two steps back.

I replaced the brake booster, the original large pancake booster was replaced with the dual diaphragm disco 1 booster. When I removed the original booster there was something inside of it that is rattling but no idea what it is. 

First drive and the brakes are no different. 😕

So some more research and watching a few videos, LR Workshop's in particular showed how loose wheel bearings can cause a soft pedal. After work this week myself and one of our mechanics checked all the bearings, with only the fronts needing a slight adjustment of less than an ⅛th turn.

Again no firmness with the pedal, we both came to the conclusion that the master cylinder is kaputz. Even pumping the pedal, the firmness is short lived as pedal begins to slowly sink to the floor.

There is brakes yes but there is no sense of yes I have brakes. With that said a new master cylinder is in the post but I will be putting the Defender in winter storage tomorrow, so this issue with have "to be continued" at a later date. 

 

Todd 

[Sigi_H]

5 hours ago, tuko said:

Even pumping the pedal, the firmness is short lived as pedal begins to slowly sink to the floor.

Definitely not the wheel bearings. Sounds like main cylinder or a leaking caliper

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sigi_H

[Little mule]

Rattling sounds inside the vacuum booster doesn’t sound good . 
Todd I would look for an old RRC booster . You can rebuild the entire booster including the inside rubber diaphragm unlike the later ones and the series . They only sell the O rings and a cpl of rubber inlet valves . I can get the proper numbers if you need them .

have you thought of going to hydro boost brakes ? A good thing with the rovers is you can add a extra pump to run the brakes or just tap into the steering pump like normal

 they will get your truck stopped in a hurry l9l.

I agree if the peddle is going to the floor and there is no visible leaks you master has quit working properly .

time for a up grade lol.

Tony 

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Little mule said:

Rattling sounds inside the vacuum booster doesn’t sound good . 
Todd I would look for an old RRC booster . You can rebuild the entire booster including the inside rubber diaphragm unlike the later ones and the series . They only sell the O rings and a cpl of rubber inlet valves . I can get the proper numbers if you need them .

have you thought of going to hydro boost brakes ? A good thing with the rovers is you can add a extra pump to run the brakes or just tap into the steering pump like normal

 they will get your truck stopped in a hurry l9l.

I agree if the peddle is going to the floor and there is no visible leaks you master has quit working properly .

time for a up grade lol.

Tony 

I didn’t know you could rebuild them, so the parts list would be useful for the archives.

Hydroboost may be very good, but if you can identify the faulty part, the standard Discovery/RR system is extremely good and doesn’t cost a fortune or require extensive mods to fit.

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Little mule said:

have you thought of going to hydro boost brakes ?

I'd say OP needs to fix the actual problem not throw upgrades at it that may mask it.

In good condition standard brakes should be more than good enough unless the truck is a long way from standard - limited by the grip of the tyres not the braking force.

[tuko]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'd say OP needs to fix the actual problem not throw upgrades at it that may mask it.

In good condition standard brakes should be more than good enough unless the truck is a long way from standard - limited by the grip of the tyres not the braking force.

In total agreement with you FF. I've gone through a process of elimination with the brakes, other than replacing the front soft hoses or replacing the master cylinder, everything else has been gone though.

When I ordered the master cylinder, it said at checkout and in the confirmation email that I would recieve it between 18-20th, still nothing.....so typical. 

[Snagger]

The hoses could be a factor.  It’s hard to see any swelling unless you have someone else pump the pedal hard while you look yourself as you know what you are searching for.  The hoses are the non-standard element on my 109 Discovery brake system - it has the standard servo and master (on an adaptor to the SIII pedal box) and standard late D1 callipers (the Zeus pistons only serve to improve reliability and longevity, not performance).  The hard lines don’t matter, but I do have a set of Goodridge braided hoses, which helped with the previous standard 109 system and were reused on the swapped axles.

[Little mule]

I forgot to mention one detail about the booster rebuild kits . 

ONLY the RRC booster have a complete kit including the diaphragm inside. The disco and series and defender style kits come with the one way calve and the insert seals NOT a diaphragm.

this is the most over looked problem . 
 

like taco said his peddle goes down which indicates a internal leak inside the master cylinder. If there are no leaks externally there is only other explanation the master .

I have had zero issues with the genuine TRW all steel master cylinders they are listed as genuine .

I have heard on one this that might be causing your peddle issue and  is the “peddle high from the floor correct . If the peddle is not correctly measured  from the floor and the push rod not adjusted correctly it could be causing the punch rod not coming back all the way and not closing the little valve in the brake master which will let fluid move internally . 
there need to be a min of I believe 1/16 to 1/8 of peddle play before the push rod touches the brake master cylinder piston internally. 
the push rod could be stuck or way out of adjustment . Just my thoughts . And. Experiences with brake issues .

tony 
 

[tuko]

Reviving an old post I started a while back. During the past few months I've compiled a list of part numbers that will be replacing the exciting front brakes on the Defender. From the last time writing the TRV brake master cylinder has been on a shelf waiting while the Defender has been and still is in winter storage. The Brembo reman. brake calipers arrived friday, the parts on the third shipment are the drilled/grooved vented front discs and stainless steel brake lines which are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. 

The last bit of parts that I need are the brake pads and this is where I'm unsure what to order, therefore the questions now. 
Bear in mind my driving and the roads that I travel here in the nordic region and with the Defender hoovering around the 3000kg all the time, I'm thinking that a brake pad with a higher clamping efficiency and higher operating temperature would suit me better but the problem that I've ran into so far is it's a jungle to find any detailed information from the manufacturers ie. Mintex or Brembo. I have been favoring Brembo parts for the Defender but I was wondering about "yellow stuff" brake pads for the Defender as they do have information that does show that they meet my requirements. I also saw that Lof offers pads with the requirements that I'm out for but wondering if they are just a rebrand of a known product or specifically made to his specifications ? OR is there another brand name that I should look at while I'm trying to figure this out. 

Those of you who have a heavier Defender, tow and have over your vehicles lifetime did an upgrade to your brakes, what is your preferred brake pads that have served you well or excided your expectations? Based on your tips/suggestions/recommendations I'll make up my mind and place the final order.

 

Thanks,
Todd.

[Snagger]

You hear a lot of stories about EBC brakes, but my grooved and dimpled discs and Green Stuff pads were excellent.  I’d use them again.

[elbekko]

I was happy with the EBCs on my Classic, I think on the P38 I've just been running the stock stuff, which also work well enough considering the rest of the system needs a bit of work.

I'm not sure you'll notice much difference between the good brands. Your limits will be overall system pressure, piston size and disc heat capacity.

A while back I posted about the iBooster, an electric brake booster that apparently gives a lot of assist. That might be worth looking into?

[Bowie69]

I just buy the 'not £9 a set' brand pads and they seem fine. 

That said, I've got EBC red stuff in my Audi and I love them, especially when pressing on a bit. 

[FridgeFreezer]

I run EBC Greenstuff on the 109 mainly because my callipers are Wilwood and the EBC's are half the price of Wilwood's own pads. Braking force far outweighs mechanical grip in my case.

[Sigi_H]

Long time ago I used EBC racing pads on my bike. The effect was like throwing an anchor compared to normal pads.

But a very big disadvantage was, they have been worse like normal pads as long they where cold. This made them not usable for public trafic. No idea whether this is still the case, but worth getting more information.

[Snagger]

59 minutes ago, Sigi_H said:

Long time ago I used EBC racing pads on my bike. The effect was like throwing an anchor compared to normal pads.

But a very big disadvantage was, they have been worse like normal pads as long they where cold. This made them not usable for public trafic. No idea whether this is still the case, but worth getting more information.

I think that may be an issue for the racing spec pads, like the red pads and perhaps the yellow.  I believe they wear faster, too.  The green are mild compared to them and don’t seem to lack effectiveness when cold, and mine wore very well, but we’re still significantly better than the Mintex they replaced.  The blue pads are meant to be their mildest and very long lasting, basically an economy set.  I don’t know if there is much benefit over standard in their case.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Sigi_H said:

But a very big disadvantage was, they have been worse like normal pads as long they where cold. This made them not usable for public trafic. No idea whether this is still the case, but worth getting more information.

EBC publish all this - there's different grades for road / race etc., the greenstuff are for road and work perfectly from cold, other versions (other colours) get progressively more "racy" and will work better when hot.

I've been running the greenstsuff ones since I built the truck ~18 years ago and they have proven to be fine, I think the only drawback is they may wear slightly faster than OEM pads but given my choices are EBC or Wilwood at twice the price I can live with that.

[Bowie69]

Agreed, red stuff like a little bit of warmth, that said the first braking operation at the end of the road is fine, and I never need to think about it again.

I'll be running them in future, for sure.

[tuko]

Guys, I can't say thank you enough.

The clear choice by many is EBC green stuff. To my surprise I can buy them off the shelf locally at a good price.   ( DP6708 and DP61033 )

 

Todd.

[tuko]

14 hours ago, elbekko said:

I was happy with the EBCs on my Classic, I think on the P38 I've just been running the stock stuff, which also work well enough considering the rest of the system needs a bit of work.

I'm not sure you'll notice much difference between the good brands. Your limits will be overall system pressure, piston size and disc heat capacity.

A while back I posted about the iBooster, an electric brake booster that apparently gives a lot of assist. That might be worth looking into?

Both you and Tobias have made reference to the iBooster. To be honest I didn't look into it till this evening and an interesting topic to say the least. 
Clearly available here, being a complete package it eliminates a lot of head scratching other than the electrics. 

I like the idea of getting rid of the leaky mechanical pump therefore I'll do some home work on this subject. Maybe a future project on the Defender. 🤔

 

Todd.

[FridgeFreezer]

Is it the same thing as this?