fmmv Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I have seen lathes sat on a kind of low loader frame with castors, and feet to wind down and level it when in position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 Today diddnt turn out the way I expected and was a bit all over the place. first things first, I took the advice from @vulcan bomber and got a bed stop. This was harder than I thought but I Found a guy with a NOS one local ish but my god the price! another purchase was the quick change tool post. I was going to hold off on this until I took the old one apart to see what I was dealing with and it looked like it was full of mud. I wiped the worst of it off but me being me, once I see it I have to clean it and I diddnt want to put the time and effort into doing so. After trawling the internet and getting all the conflicting info I got a wedge type BXA as I thought it would fit the aesthetics of the machine a bit better. And it fit But as you can see from this photo the stud doesn’t fit. It’s m12 and the stud for the new post is 5/8unf I have a 5/8unf tap so thought about drilling the cross slide out but diddnt really like that idea, could have also spun the 5/8 stud down and tapped it to m12 but diddnt have a working lathe. so left it alone until I could make my mind up this brings us to the VFD…..ooooh that VFD. It’s an alvitar31, I have experience with this drive at work. It is pretty good untill it stops working for no reason. The one I got from eBay is one of those drives. It diddnt matter what I did I couldn’t get an output, even wired in my diagnostic pad and couldn’t get it to jog manually so that’s going back. The little Chinese one however, with a few setting changes worked! Giving me a functioning lathe(sort of) so I turned that down, put a die in the wrench and held it against the stud with the tail stock and it came out pretty good for the first time ever operating this thing. Just need to set it back up and cut a little away behind the thread for clearance but I don’t have a sutable tool yet. The bed stop was really handy for this Viola so giving up on this inverter lark makes me look at other ways of running the machine. There are diy plans for rotary converters….but that’s more work. There are these magic little boxes that I’m pretty sure are just stinemeg(not sure how it’s spelled) connections using phase shifting….basically just a capacitor between 2 phases. Or I could get a static converter. So guess what I’ll be researching for a while😂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Personally I don't see the point In a VFD on a manual lathe. RPM isn't that critical within the couple of hundred RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 6 hours ago, vulcan bomber said: Personally I don't see the point In a VFD on a manual lathe. RPM isn't that critical within the couple of hundred RPM. It’s a cheap and fairly simple way of getting 3phase but also has its problem. I don’t use them for speed controls or anything like that it’s just on/off set at a static 50hz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 One point to consider with this lathe, is an M300 (or M250) is not a clutch driven lathe like the bigger Harrisons or Colchester's where the motor runs constantly, to stop or reverse direction to motor is stopped or reversed, from memory a clutch drive comes in with the Colchester Master size 5hp motors. Typically most 3 phase converter are set up to start the motor and then keep it running in one direction at a constant speed, not sure this will work so well with this lathe. Not going to even pretend I understand the wiring required to make it work but I am fairly sure there are others on here who can explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 32 minutes ago, sean f said: One point to consider with this lathe, is an M300 (or M250) is not a clutch driven lathe like the bigger Harrisons or Colchester's where the motor runs constantly, to stop or reverse direction to motor is stopped or reversed, from memory a clutch drive comes in with the Colchester Master size 5hp motors. Typically most 3 phase converter are set up to start the motor and then keep it running in one direction at a constant speed, not sure this will work so well with this lathe. Not going to even pretend I understand the wiring required to make it work but I am fairly sure there are others on here who can explain it. Not entirely sure what the difference is then.... just that it's started and stopped for any changes in speed/direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 7 minutes ago, landroversforever said: Not entirely sure what the difference is then.... just that it's started and stopped for any changes in speed/direction. On bigger lathes such as my Colchester Triumph 2000 the electrical motor is started and then runs continuously whilst the lathe is used, the control lever then uses a clutch mechanism to engage the drive and spin the chuck either forwards or backwards, the motor continues to spin in the same direction all the time. On a M300 there is no clutch and the motor is started and stopped to spin the chuck. In use with a normal full 3 phase power supply there would be little effective difference in use for most users. The issues can arise when using a static or rotary 3 phase convertor to power the lathe that they often don't like being started and stopped or it has to be done at the convertor rather than using the lathe controls (again the full reason for this would need to come from some one with more electronic skills than me), a lot of VFD's have a pendant type controller which with some clever wiring (cleverer than me anyway!) can be wired in to operate from the lathe controls which keeps things neat or mounted on the lathe. It can all be sorted but sometimes takes a bit more thought. Many VFD's will also start a motor gently to reduce the start up power draw and allow a smaller cheaper VFD to be used, mostly this isn't going to be to much of an issue but it can be for some things like thread cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Have you checked how hopeless it is to bring 3-phase in from the street? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 3 minutes ago, sean f said: On bigger lathes such as my Colchester Triumph 2000 the electrical motor is started and then runs continuously whilst the lathe is used, the control lever then uses a clutch mechanism to engage the drive and spin the chuck either forwards or backwards, the motor continues to spin in the same direction all the time. On a M300 there is no clutch and the motor is started and stopped to spin the chuck. In use with a normal full 3 phase power supply there would be little effective difference in use for most users. The issues can arise when using a static or rotary 3 phase convertor to power the lathe that they often don't like being started and stopped or it has to be done at the convertor rather than using the lathe controls (again the full reason for this would need to come from some one with more electronic skills than me), a lot of VFD's have a pendant type controller which with some clever wiring (cleverer than me anyway!) can be wired in to operate from the lathe controls which keeps things neat or mounted on the lathe. It can all be sorted but sometimes takes a bit more thought. Many VFD's will also start a motor gently to reduce the start up power draw and allow a smaller cheaper VFD to be used, mostly this isn't going to be to much of an issue but it can be for some things like thread cutting. I get what you’re saying now. This lathe is standard DOL with a phase swap controlled by contactors shown in the pic below the VFD can either be run as a little powerstation(really not advisable) or it can control fwd, rev and stop through the internal 24v circuitry pictured here you are spot on for the acceleration ramps, last night I had to draw a very shallow one for my drill VFD to start the lathe but when it got up to speed it was “ok”. decel also took a while as I do t have a resistor bank to dump the current like I said I’m looking at alternatives at the moment. The rotary units seem to be the best for output but the cost of buying and running them is putting me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 minutes ago, sean f said: On bigger lathes such as my Colchester Triumph 2000 the electrical motor is started and then runs continuously whilst the lathe is used, the control lever then uses a clutch mechanism to engage the drive and spin the chuck either forwards or backwards, the motor continues to spin in the same direction all the time. On a M300 there is no clutch and the motor is started and stopped to spin the chuck. In use with a normal full 3 phase power supply there would be little effective difference in use for most users. The issues can arise when using a static or rotary 3 phase convertor to power the lathe that they often don't like being started and stopped or it has to be done at the convertor rather than using the lathe controls (again the full reason for this would need to come from some one with more electronic skills than me), a lot of VFD's have a pendant type controller which with some clever wiring (cleverer than me anyway!) can be wired in to operate from the lathe controls which keeps things neat or mounted on the lathe. It can all be sorted but sometimes takes a bit more thought. Many VFD's will also start a motor gently to reduce the start up power draw and allow a smaller cheaper VFD to be used, mostly this isn't going to be to much of an issue but it can be for some things like thread cutting. Sorry I could have saved you writing most of that.... I'm familiar with the lathe types, but I just wasn't seeing how it would actually affect the operation of the lathe in this kind of setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 minutes ago, elbekko said: Have you checked how hopeless it is to bring 3-phase in from the street? Hideous cost I reckon.... friend had 3PH put into a building and even them doing all the trenching and cable laying it was still I was to say something like ~£20k!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 11 minutes ago, elbekko said: Have you checked how hopeless it is to bring 3-phase in from the street? 75k workshop is in the middle of nowhere so a lot of work would need to be done 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I also looked at getting 3 phase in direct, bearing in mind the sub station is less than 10m from my workshop, I got western power down to have a look, the engineer was very nice and made an immediate estimate of about £7500 to 10000 and that just to run the cable to my property, work on my side would be down to me. He offered a full formal quote but didn't think it would change much so it would have been a waste of time. He did mention that some one else he had spoken with ended up getting a second hand 3 phase generator and running that but since I live on an estate with close neighbours that wasn't a solution that would have made me popular, guess it depends where peoples workshops are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 1 minute ago, sean f said: I also looked at getting 3 phase in direct, bearing in mind the sub station is less than 10m from my workshop, I got western power down to have a look, the engineer was very nice and made an immediate estimate of about £7500 to 10000 and that just to run the cable to my property, work on my side would be down to me. He offered a full formal quote but didn't think it would change much so it would have been a waste of time. He did mention that some one else he had spoken with ended up getting a second hand 3 phase generator and running that but since I live on an estate with close neighbours that wasn't a solution that would have made me popular, guess it depends where peoples workshops are. Much like a trailer, vehicle lift, tig welder or lathe…..you’re always popular if you have a 3phase generator😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 hours ago, dangerous doug said: 75k workshop is in the middle of nowhere so a lot of work would need to be done Yikes. That'll buy you a few VFDs. You'd think in this age of electric cars it would be easier to bring in 3-phase, as all proper chargers need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I am sure you know this, but just in case, rotary phase converters in my experience are incredibly noisy and you won't want to be in the same room as one unless it is n a sound proofed enclosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaghost Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I run a 3 phase Alfred Herbert drill off a static inverter, it occasionally chatters when I occasionally overload it............. But have to say it works great Regards Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmmv Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 A VFD will also let you brake the lathe electrically, handy if bits of your offal that still have nerves linked to your brain are trapped in it. They may not be very powerful on paper but lathes nevertheless don't mind hurting you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 Am aware of the noise from the rotary converters which is why I’m looking at the static ones. this is an alternative https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283812247889?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=jrumxrpurbc&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=WZUdkjFXQ3K&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY it says it’s digital somehow but by the description I suspect that this is just a capacitor in a fancy box using phase shift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 16 hours ago, dangerous doug said: Am aware of the noise from the rotary converters which is why I’m looking at the static ones. this is an alternative https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283812247889?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=jrumxrpurbc&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=WZUdkjFXQ3K&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY it says it’s digital somehow but by the description I suspect that this is just a capacitor in a fancy box using phase shift Did a bit more digging and this is only good for a 230v motor did stumble across this though https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/pc-40-3-5hp-phase-converter/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmmv Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Some(most?) 3 phase motors can be wired star for 415v or delta for 230v. It just depends how you connect the windings. As 3 phase mains is 415v across phases, ie 230v from each phase to neutral, most motors come wired star. But for a VFD or converter you may, but not necessarily, have to change to delta, ie 230v depends on the device. That said, if you want to just run the motor at a single speed, it's probably simplest to just get a new single phase motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 7 hours ago, fmmv said: Some(most?) 3 phase motors can be wired star for 415v or delta for 230v. It just depends how you connect the windings. As 3 phase mains is 415v across phases, ie 230v from each phase to neutral, most motors come wired star. But for a VFD or converter you may, but not necessarily, have to change to delta, ie 230v depends on the device. That said, if you want to just run the motor at a single speed, it's probably simplest to just get a new single phase motor. I was under the impression that all ac motors were basically 3 phase motors with a start capacitor between W1 and W2 known as a steinmetz connection (found the correct spelling). It works but you Lose 1/3 of the torque….im not running an industrial work shop here so this isn’t a big deal and I can do it down stream of the motor. This is also what I suspect those DPS boxes are. I have priced this up and it’s going to be about £100 for mid range parts but we shall see what happens as I’m talking to a man about a phase converter now…..but that is basically the above drawing with more of the same in it. im happy to be wrong about the single phase motor though. I havnt really worked on them and have never been in one to take a look, just upstream fault finding to make it work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmmv Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 A friend used to run a circular on a static converter. You could switch the converter for different loads. For the saw, he had to run another 3 phase motor, just a motor, in parallel to generate the third phase I guess. There won't be great starting torque I would guess, if it is clutched that is probably no matter. Single phase motors are essentially 2 phase. The second phase, usually not as beefy a winding as the main one, sometimes is live all the time via a permanent run capacitor, and sometimes is just a start winding via a much larger capacitor which is switched out by a centrifugal switch. Some motors have both capacitors ( cap start, cap run, the start cap is switched out) The motors with a run capacitor tend to pass less run current than just capacitor start. If you need high start torque you need a start capacitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 It’s up and running! I diddnt go down the phase converter route in the end, I called transwave and had a long chat with a man who actually knew what he was talking about and he basically said the only way you can run the m300 to its full range was with a rotary converter as the statics won’t cope with the top speed. I really diddnt want to dump all that cash into it right now so went back to square one and got a new VFD. This time round it’s a Parker drive AC10. Another drive I have a little experience with and they seem to be ok. The trade off has become clear very fast though. The torque isn’t there so I am limited to fairly small cuts. But it’s fine, it works! my YY control cable diddnt arrive until I got to the workshop so the control circuit was all SY cable which got confusing at times with everything being the same 3 colours. Being curious to the next guy incase it’s actually wired to 3 phase again Diddnt really take many photos from here on as I just wanted to play. Did make a new top nut for the tool post so I can go for the 2 leaver set up others do. not sure if this is just a thing you have to do or if something else is off but I had to put a dti on everything I I put in the chuck as the runout was insane. is what it is and dealt with it. Nut is done complete with chamfers(because were civilised people) and I’ll be putting a handle on it tomorrow. Need to work on surface finish. I’m assuming it’s because I’m going a bit slow and using carbide inserts at the moment bot sure if I’m happy with the height, mite take a bit off the top tomorrow. All in all a nice little project. I’ve ordered a little bearing to go under it which I think will make a difference and it’ll protect the nut at the top. And possibly give more clamping force? Little message I left for the next guy at work….thought it may be relevant here too😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Carbide have a very narrow band where they work properly, surface speed, feed per rev and depth of cut. And that's assuming your using an appropriate grade. Get any of them wrong and it won't look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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