After the NERC

[steve_a]

Just reading Aus 4wd monthly about track closures and it looks like they may be having same kind of BS we had with NERC, now IMHO I reckon we would have been better with mass protests and drives of disputed lanes because we got screwed by trying to be nice and the RA walked all over us, however that's all in the past and it doesn't matter what I think or thuought.

No what i was wondering if it would be worth making a note of the lanes we lost via NERC and collecting information on the state of those lanes post NERC, it has been 12 months now since it came into force and it might provide some good ammunition for any remaining disputed lanes if it can be showed that:

1) closed off lanes are in exactly the same condition, i.e. agric use is main cause of any condition and 4x4 use had no or little effect on state.

2) closed off lanes are becoming overgrown and unusable by anybody, 4x4, walker, cyclist etc

If we could perhaps present a case which showed that NERC had not only removed lanes from our use, but in effect had made those lanes fall into total disuse it would make an interesting case to put to an e-petition.

I know not every lost lane will be unusable or in the same condition as when it was being driven, but if a survey finds that the effect of NERC has been either nothing or actual reduced access for everyone then perhaps we could have another crack at it. This time a peaceful approach as we did last time would be the way to go.

I'm not a member of CRAG or GLASS, I came late to the party for those and didn't fully agree with the method (as I said above) so I've no idea if something like this was already underway, but to get the information I don't think membership or not should be a barrier.

What do you all reckon?

[rob90]

What a good idea Im a paid up member of glass, and sometimes look in on there forum but there is nothing in the offing at the minute deffinatly worth a go

I to think there should have been a bit more of a fight rather than letting the RA get there own selfish way

[Paul Humphreys]

I am a member of CRAG, yes it would be a good idea. But you need someone/group/web site to keep all the reports. But in the end my personal view is it will not bring the lanes back. But what we/CRAG are doing is trying to keep open the ones that are left. I know Bob has posted you post ovwr on the CRAG forum for its members to think about. If the idea is taken up/worked on then it may be possible to keep the info on a part of CRAG, for all users.

I will let you know what is said about it on the CRAG forum.

Paul

[rob90]

I am a member of CRAG, yes it would be a good idea. But you need someone/group/web site to keep all the reports. But in the end my personal view is it will not bring the lanes back. But what we/CRAG are doing is trying to keep open the ones that are left. I know Bob has posted you post ovwr on the CRAG forum for its members to think about. If the idea is taken up/worked on then it may be possible to keep the info on a part of CRAG, for all users.

I will let you know what is said about it on the CRAG forum.

Paul

I have done the same with glass and will let you know, it probably wont get back our lanes but a worthy tool to for any future fights with nimbies

[Betsy]

Well, I walked the famous Walna Scar road in the Lale District recently, and it is in fantastic condition! all nice and smooth with a new surface. My mate walked the Gap road in Brecon last week, and reported it just as it always was.

IMO the Councils and NPA's are spending money maintaining the closed lanes to a higher standard than the byways and ucr's that we can still drive. I smell a rat with this, as they will in future probably use the comparison to demonstrate yet more reason to ban vehicles from routes.

I always was a cynical old git!

[white90]

the lane that runs past my house is now closing in and very overgrown,

never was a busy greenlane but now it is fast disappearing

[steve_a]

IMO the Councils and NPA's are spending money maintaining the closed lanes to a higher standard than the byways and ucr's that we can still drive. I smell a rat with this, as they will in future probably use the comparison to demonstrate yet more reason to ban vehicles from routes.

I suppose that brings some other ideas, perhaps a few FOI requests on how much was spent maintaining those lanes that show as good after NERC versus amount spent before.

For that case an FOI request on budget before and after NERC could be useful.

It can all only help.

Steve

[honitonhobbit]

As an ex GLASS county rep, I keep a very keen eye on the old routes and to be honest DCC are doing b*gg*r all, but then again they felt that the NERC act was a load of b***** any way. There management was to slap a TRO on when it became undriveable or if people moaned then remove it a day or so before they had to. No budget to spend so let the 4x4 guys and girls keep the lanes clear.

They can't afford to police the new downgrades so people break the law regularly.

The place we are hoping to move to in Somerset has a couple of corking 'summer' lanes that have been downgraded but I know the landowners well and will be taking my old hobby*, so I can drive them when I want...

*Same as BBC

[welshlaner2]

Interesting point, not a member of Glass or crag, but i do pass rupps now and again and the small little not so long ones have fallen into dis use by everyone. They were not popular with ramblers walkers as often remote unknown and little used if at all. In the years before the ban i meet nobody and i mean nobody, farmer, walker anyone. Many are still "open" no gates or notice and from what i can see no use whatso ever.

Its a bit like the footpaths and odd rupp near me, spoke to the odd farmer and those working on the land and they are surprised to see me (still on the legal row), years ago they would think i was lost but now just wave.

Speaking to one landowner recently he said he had not seen anyone on the footpaths for years, i notice this to, ramblers seem to stick to sunday afternoon organised walks starting from converinet car parks (often packed) do a few odd miles. Most seem to be there 50's & 60's bobble hat mob, rarely walk more than 2 miles, take in pub on way and circle route, avoid these (few are motor row) and you might never see one.

Yes you might get a few locals (often holiday home owners) walking there dogs but they stick close to "home", as for meeting them on lanes very rare more likely meet you lot.

So its such a shame, so many gone for what ?

[GBMUD]

I was thinking just the other day about the way RBOATs are starting to look. I pass several when taking the sandbag to work (In Wiltshire) and I have been noticing their lack of use and relative over-grown state. It seems a shame that, once vehicular rights have been removed, the ability to use the lanes is removed from everyone - at least during the summer months when the vegetation is at it's highest.

Here in Wiltshire it is not just the RUPPs that are being lost as a result of minimal use. I drove a BOAT the other day, an old Roman road near to Salisbury, and, while it was easy enough for the first mile or so, it soon became so overgrown that I lost my snorkel and really had to force my way through the overgrowth. Part way along the lane I saw that some third party organisation had put up "Bridleway" signs. At this point it would not have been possible to ride a horst due to the restricted headroom and the number of brambles growing across the lane - TBH, walking it would have been a trial. I was eventually defeated by a pair of gates where the lane crosses a real bridleway, where equestrian sized gates had been fitted, forcing me to turn back. This lane suffers a lack of use as a result of these gates. A few hundred meters on, at the end of the lane, I would have been thwarted as there is another equestrian gate, and a locked 5-bar gate.

Elsewhere, the farmer has ploughed and seeded a BOAT (there is now a fine crop of barley) and, despite informing the local ROW department on two occasions, no action has been taken to restore the route.

I will be happy to make reports on the usability/condition of RBOATs in Wiltshire, tell me where to submit them!

Chris

[geoffbeaumont]

Interesting point, not a member of Glass or crag, but i do pass rupps now and again and the small little not so long ones have fallen into dis use by everyone. They were not popular with ramblers walkers as often remote unknown and little used if at all. In the years before the ban i meet nobody and i mean nobody, farmer, walker anyone. Many are still "open" no gates or notice and from what i can see no use whatso ever.

Its a bit like the footpaths and odd rupp near me, spoke to the odd farmer and those working on the land and they are surprised to see me (still on the legal row), years ago they would think i was lost but now just wave.

Spent a couple of days walking in the Artists Valley area above Furnace a few weeks ago (on a weekend with good weather) - two solid days of walking including Artists Valley itself and literally saw two people - one at his house and the other a delivery driver...

They were some of my favourite lanes up there, too

[welshlaner2]

Spent a couple of days walking in the Artists Valley area above Furnace a few weeks ago (on a weekend with good weather) - two solid days of walking including Artists Valley itself and literally saw two people - one at his house and the other a delivery driver...

They were some of my favourite lanes up there, too

if you mean artist's valley near Taly-y-bont on the west coast near machynlleth then your right, spent a whole week wild camping and doings as many lanes as we could both ways and certainly some of the best lanes in the country.

I used to like the one which went over the pass to the next valley, high steep and no-body about, as said spent a whole week and never meet a sole, some lanes just took all day. When we got tired just stopped pitch up camp and stayed the night.

Never meet anyone, farmer, rambler nothing apart from the trip to get supplies

[honitonhobbit]

TO be honest it's like NERC knocked the wind out of everyone, user, manager, uncle Ton Cobley and all.

Down by me most of the lanes are UCR's so are still driveable but hardly anyone is bothering. They were always tight but now some are simply impassable.

I went out on Sunday morning and 'Cleared' five with a using the defender bulldozer technique.

Would be nice to get a few more folk coming down to Devon to do the same - I am happy to mark up maps

[Betsy]

Drove the Peaks lanes at the weekend, very few other motorised users. Saw two other vehicles, a D2 and a Nissan Patrol. Lots of Mountain bikers, and Ramblers. No hassles though.

[geoffbeaumont]

I used to like the one which went over the pass to the next valley, high steep and no-body about, as said spent a whole week and never meet a sole, some lanes just took all day. When we got tired just stopped pitch up camp and stayed the night.

Walked that one, but never driven it - think it's been TRO'd for a while, at least at the Artist's Valley end? Awkward buggers have diverted the bridleway at the bottom so it no longer follows the route on the map, which resulted in us going the wrong way and heading back up the valley Decided to carry on and came back down the old RUPP from the East. It's still pretty chewed up at the bottom, but clearly hadn't been any vehicles or horses along it for quite while - there was a lot of forestry work going on up there, looked like marking up for thinning, but there weren't really any signs of walkers on the route itself. There were signs of quads and maybe trail bikes on the bridleway between the old RUPPs, but they'd been doing drainage work along there so might have been connected to that rather than illegal use.

[ChrisV8]

Have just spent the weekend driving legal lanes and UCR in Cumbria but all outside the Lake District National Park. I am a GLASS member as well and researched the lanes we used, initially using Wayfinder and the Cumbria CC site before having a look at the Definitive map.

But we did two whole days driving and saw absolutely no other users, no other drivers or trail bikes, no Bobblies, no Mountain Bikers and no horse riders. Included in the routes were The Highway, Breasthigh Road (just as good as any in the LDNP) and Hartside pass recently highlighted in LRO. Where was everyone then ? The weather was great, nice and sunny, we reckon there were in excess of 150 motorcycles at the Cafe on Hartside but only us Green laning most strange. All the routes were in excellent condition and some looked like no one had been through for ages.

My only surmise is that everyone was in the LDNP upsetting the Bobblies again

[GBMUD]

TO be honest it's like NERC knocked the wind out of everyone, user, manager, uncle Ton Cobley and all.

Down by me most of the lanes are UCR's so are still driveable but hardly anyone is bothering. They were always tight but now some are simply impassable.

I went out on Sunday morning and 'Cleared' five with a using the defender bulldozer technique.

Would be nice to get a few more folk coming down to Devon to do the same - I am happy to mark up maps

So let's have a day out driving them then. I'm in, anyone else up for a weekend during the summer driving UCRs with lots of overgrowth? Assuming that you can get a pass out HH - I promise we will all come round and coo after...

I tried a couple the other day (JST's last Wellington event) on the quad and was beaten back, that is how bad some of them are!

Chris

[welshlaner2]

But we did two whole days driving and saw absolutely no other users, no other drivers or trail bikes, no Bobblies, no Mountain Bikers and no horse riders. Included in the routes were The Highway, Breasthigh Road (just as good as any in the LDNP) and Hartside pass recently highlighted in LRO. Where was everyone then ? The weather was great, nice and sunny, we reckon there were in excess of 150 motorcycles at the Cafe on Hartside but only us Green laning most strange. All the routes were in excellent condition and some looked like no one had been through for ages.

very strange, but generally true, i go out most weekends, often the whole weekend (camp the night) and been doing so since the NERC ban, on the whole meet nobody on often popular routes in Wales.

Do keep a kind of log, and one can often name the persons i've meet this last 6 months and it's very few, more likely to meet the odd small group of laners than anyone else.

Yes i do on occessions meet the odd rambler, but nearly always near the UCR of tarmac road they have parked.

Do visit the odd "ale" house and speak to the staff/owners they say the same, very few people about. most country pubs now reliey on the "Sunday lunch trade", nor does the weather make much difference, on sunny days still dead, even the cross country main roads are quiet.

[honitonhobbit]

So let's have a day out driving them then. I'm in, anyone else up for a weekend during the summer driving UCRs with lots of overgrowth? Assuming that you can get a pass out HH - I promise we will all come round and coo after...

I tried a couple the other day (JST's last Wellington event) on the quad and was beaten back, that is how bad some of them are!

Chris

I'm up for that, give me a few weeks though as the house move is iminenet (sp?)

Matt and Dave would be interested as well... And maybe Will

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Count me in ................ i should have the engine finished in a couple of weeks

Ian

[rob90]

Just reading Aus 4wd monthly about track closures and it looks like they may be having same kind of BS we had with NERC, now IMHO I reckon we would have been better with mass protests and drives of disputed lanes because we got screwed by trying to be nice and the RA walked all over us, however that's all in the past and it doesn't matter what I think or thuought.

No what i was wondering if it would be worth making a note of the lanes we lost via NERC and collecting information on the state of those lanes post NERC, it has been 12 months now since it came into force and it might provide some good ammunition for any remaining disputed lanes if it can be showed that:

1) closed off lanes are in exactly the same condition, i.e. agric use is main cause of any condition and 4x4 use had no or little effect on state.

2) closed off lanes are becoming overgrown and unusable by anybody, 4x4, walker, cyclist etc

If we could perhaps present a case which showed that NERC had not only removed lanes from our use, but in effect had made those lanes fall into total disuse it would make an interesting case to put to an e-petition.

I know not every lost lane will be unusable or in the same condition as when it was being driven, but if a survey finds that the effect of NERC has been either nothing or actual reduced access for everyone then perhaps we could have another crack at it. This time a peaceful approach as we did last time would be the way to go.

I'm not a member of CRAG or GLASS, I came late to the party for those and didn't fully agree with the method (as I said above) so I've no idea if something like this was already underway, but to get the information I don't think membership or not should be a barrier.

What do you all reckon?

well im a bit lost for words really i copied the above post and put it up on the GLASS forum and you know i got one reply which read as follows:-

not a bad idea at all and yep I think something similar has already been suggested. Whether anyone acted on it though is another question.

If anyone can think of examples of lanes which are suffering because of lack of use after NERC then get out there, make a note, take some photos and share the info via this forum.

There's no doubt it could be useful ammo to fight back with when the next attack comes (and sure as night follows day it will come).

Cheers

it seems they are more concerned with posting comments about photos of people driving through puddles rather quickly,

I mean when i first read the post i thought what a good idea, ok we will never win back our lanes but at the very least we could gain some evidence about the state of the routes, but when even the Green Lane Association are not interested????

It must be a relay s**t idea

lets hope crag show a little interest

[honitonhobbit]

Thats GLASS for you these days. The Glory Days when Dave Wilson was at the helm are long gone - where is he now when you need him? Does he sleep in a crystal cave like Arthur waiting for his time of greatest need?

[TJ101]

I'm up for that, give me a few weeks though as the house move is iminenet (sp?)

Matt and Dave would be interested as well... And maybe Will

Hello !! excuse me,, and i please !!

[Paul Humphreys]

lets hope crag show a little interest

Well theres more than one post about it after I copied the post over.

I do think its a good idea, so do others. CRAG will have a talk about it at Billing as mose of the Exec or CRAG will be there. I will let you know how it goes.

Paul

[welshlaner2]

well im a bit lost for words really i copied the above post and put it up on the GLASS forum and you know i got one reply which read as follows:-

it seems they are more concerned with posting comments about photos of people driving through puddles rather quickly,

It must be a relay s**t idea

lets hope crag show a little interest

well that seem to be the general attiude of glass and others round our way, and yes you mostly likely have heard about the "spashy six".

After taking videos of spashing thought a ford in wales (on the wet road site) and posting on youtube someone in the 4x4 commuity got "upset" and informed the Local Police, warning letters or some other ASBO warning was sent and one of the members of the group went to court having refused to accept a caution.

It never got to court having gone though a "pre trail" review the CPS dropped the case, but it left a bitter feeling names got mentioned. Now it was not Glass, but people within it who used Glass name as a kind of crediablity in dealing with the authorities.

In another incident a group i was with got stopped by a well know member one of these organsiations and questioned in a rude and threating manner as to how we got lots of mud on our vechicles. On the day in question it was out first meeting with anyone and quiet taken back by the attuide, no.plate details were taken and had the usally rant about off road driving.

On the weekend we had camped at a local farm the farmer let us drive and play in certain areas, basically bog holes, he had also asked us to drive over moorland tracks, he owned to check some fenceing which might have been damaged in the recent storms, thats how we got the mud. No concern of these interfering townies.