New Group Formed

[Paul Humphreys]

[Admin Comment]

First of all I moved this thread here as it will in some way affect everyone that drives a Land Rover. The International Forum is the busiest forum as well.

Secondly, this topic is discussed very heavily on the Mud Club website and Glass Rep has responded.

Here's the link to that discussion:-

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=13894

Les.

The Countryside Recreational Access Group

CRAG has been formed by a group of enthusiasts who regularly use motor vehicles in the countryside and who have become disillusioned with the approach of organisations in resolving current issues. CRAGs members believe that in order to protect our pastime in the current rapidly changing environment an alternative approach to that of the existing organisations will be required.

The cornerstone of the group’s objectives will be to develop closer working relationships and partnerships with Rights of Way, Highways and National Park Authorities. Whilst the group will not shy away from supporting legal actions where appropriate, the consensus is that these should be undertaken only as a last resort.

The focus of the groups’ activities will be to work closely with the relevant authorities to maintain, repair and clear routes and also to encourage them to take advantage of volunteer labour in order to get the best value from their budgets. This is aimed at generating positive PR and a change the in attitude towards motorised users in general by local authorities and the public.

CRAG will be seeking to appoint regional and area team leaders to co-ordinate activities on the ground and develop a rapport with the relevant authorities to organise volunteer projects etc.

Fundamental to the Group’s activities will be family orientated fun revolving around ROW use such as treasure hunts, BBQs camping etc.

If you’ve tried the rest and not found what you’re looking for we invite you to find out more about CRAG by dropping us a line at info@crag-uk.org. A website is currently under construction and should be up and running by the end of this month – Watch this space!

Membership for the first year is £25. For further information, please email info@crag-uk.org

The Group intends to work alongside existing organisations such as LARA, TRF and GLASS to represent the interests of motorised Rights of Way users at a local and national level.

[white90]

Nice idea in principle

if you'd like to donate towards the running and upkeep of this site there is a link in the international forum at the top.

[Paul Humphreys]

Nice idea in principle

if you'd like to donate towards the running and upkeep of this site there is a link in the international forum at the top.

PM sent.

Paul

[Les Henson]

I can't see anything 'new' that you intend to do that other groups aren't already doing.

Dilution of the various clubs isn't a good thing.

If people are a member os GLASS, and therefore pay their subs, are you asking them to also join yours at an additionl £25 P/A to achieve the same thing, leave Glass and join you (and therefore why if you're intentions are the same).

I don't doubt your intentions are good, but you haven't said anything that would convince me to join you in preference to another club.

You are just as unlikely to strike up any kind of dialogue with The RA as anyone else, and believe me, I have seen some very friendly and determined attempts that fall on deaf ears.

Some clubs already work with local authorities to help repair and clear blocked lanes.

Two things are destroying our right to use 'gree lanes'

One is a small minority of 4x4 users that do what the hell they like, and therefore paint us ll with the same brush, If you know what you are talking about, then you should really mention this.

The second is all the various clubs not communicationg with each other in order to put up a solid defence against those that deny us our rights. If your intention is to unite all the clubs in a common 'fight', then £25 a year is a bit steep.

A simple test - go onto the RA website and make a post - 'Hello, I'm a supporter of 4x4's and greenlane driving, I would like to discuss with you all the possibility of us having a better understanding of both our groups needs with regards to the countryside and it's access by walkers and motorised vehicles" - nothing wrong with that statement, friendly, inviting, etc. I've seen very similar posts like this one get deleted.

Please don't resort to pm's - you want our help, we want your honesty and openness

Les.

[selectcase]

I dont think you can have a sensible conversation with the RA. looking at thier website and some of thier posts they seem to spend most of their time arguing with each other about various laws e.g. can you cycle on a pavement, then knoking farmes and basically having a go at everyone and anything they dont like.

its an amusing site to read really as they seem to do noting but MOAN MOAN and WINGE

in comparion landrover forums tend to help likewise minded people with thier hobbes and interests not bitch and moan about everything.

[steve_a]

Fully agree about the RA forum, seems to be full of people complaining about the countryside being full of, well, countryside type things.

I looked the other day and the complaints were about:

- farm animals such as cows

- dogs (walkers dogs and also farmers dogs)

- cyclists

- horse riders

- plowing

- shooting & hunting

- 4x4 (of course!)

- bikes (of course!)

Basically it appeared that the countryside would be alright if the people who lived there would only do it when the RA didn't plan on walking...

REF CRAG, I read the post because I thought it might have been a more militant access group being formed. I think GLASS and LARA and TRF and ... have all been too nice in trying to obtain our ends (i.e. to keep our current level of access to the countryside for motorised vehicles). It was all very well trying that in the beginning, but it looks like we jut kept beating our heads on the wall till now it is almost too late.

This recent NERC bill has given me the right hump, and I can't help but feel that RA and Gov are laughing about our continued attempts for good 'PR'.

The RA likes to show pictures of torn up ground and blame bikes and trucks, well fine, counter it by showing footpaths that could easily be used as BOATs and start talking about making use of them instead, if we had access to more than 5% (or 2% after NERC it looks like) then surely such 'damage' would be spread out over much more lanes, meaning much less 'damage'.

I don't think having more lanes would mean more people would go out on them, those that do are those that are and will, I can't see a massive influx of shiny volvos and BMW's going out laning because we have access to 10% instead of 5%...

When it comes down to it, after NERC I shall have to make a decision on whether I legally green lane or illegally green lane, and once hung for a lamb(or is that sheep?).. there are some good looking footpaths out there.....

[Paul Humphreys]

I can't see anything 'new' that you intend to do that other groups aren't already doing.

Dilution of the various clubs isn't a good thing.

If people are a member os GLASS, and therefore pay their subs, are you asking them to also join yours at an additionl £25 P/A to achieve the same thing, leave Glass and join you (and therefore why if you're intentions are the same).

I don't doubt your intentions are good, but you haven't said anything that would convince me to join you in preference to another club.

You are just as unlikely to strike up any kind of dialogue with The RA as anyone else, and believe me, I have seen some very friendly and determined attempts that fall on deaf ears.

Some clubs already work with local authorities to help repair and clear blocked lanes.

Two things are destroying our right to use 'gree lanes'

One is a small minority of 4x4 users that do what the hell they like, and therefore paint us ll with the same brush, If you know what you are talking about, then you should really mention this.

The second is all the various clubs not communicationg with each other in order to put up a solid defence against those that deny us our rights. If your intention is to unite all the clubs in a common 'fight', then £25 a year is a bit steep.

A simple test - go onto the RA website and make a post - 'Hello, I'm a supporter of 4x4's and greenlane driving, I would like to discuss with you all the possibility of us having a better understanding of both our groups needs with regards to the countryside and it's access by walkers and motorised vehicles" - nothing wrong with that statement, friendly, inviting, etc. I've seen very similar posts like this one get deleted.

Please don't resort to pm's - you want our help, we want your honesty and openness

Les.

Hi Les

I can see what you are saying about the membership fee. We can only do our best to do the best job we can. We are not saying that we want to leave GLASS we are giving them a choice. Some laners we meet today when we were laning use to be members of GLASS, but said they would never go back to them(their words not mine).

As for the RA if you dont say as they say then you are out. We are trying to aim for people that use a vehicle to get out to the countryside, not just greenlaners.

The biggest thingwe have going for us is that most of the founding members of CRAG are EX-GLASS reps.

I will always try to do my best to answer any questions as honest as I can, weather I am right or wrong.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmmmmmmm

Divide and conquer ?....RA would approve methinks.

Prob with this sort of thing is frankly commitment. Talk is cheap, continous back room work by a few ongoingly and without let up has saved our day many times over. Mick Dyer of AWDC Fame has been someone who has selfishly driven thumped and moved mountains, with little press, praise or money asked for.

GLASS IMHO is a worthy and well proven voice in the battle for sanity, many others staert with guns blazin' good intentions and dreams, but soon get worn down or dispondent or just drift away for various reassons....

You may have a plan, but what are you going to do better / different / more than others, ?

What is you knowledge of the legal and technical areas that we are within ?...without doubt in my conversations with Liz Hurley / Mike Dyer and other the absolute indept knowledge, attyending meetinsg of councils / bodies and knowing the legal ins and outs is a must...

Its not I am casting dispersioons at you or your new club but you will come up against Money, legal begals, clever dicks, and red tape / law, and you need to know who and what is true and which is "Tugging your chain"...I have seen and heard of many who have been "Out Classed" by purely the fact they have been ridiculed at a public meeting as they are "best Intentioned" but "Outclassed".....

So, no website as yet, and little detail, what exactly does the £25 get everyone ?, what will you do differently to LARA GLASS and others ?....whats your background, legal knowledge and ptrevious involvement in ROW and the various legal frameworks that surround it ?

Sorry if this post appears negative, it not meant that way, but if you are really keen on getting involev big time, continously, and working away at the antis and the "Private agendas" that so many have then I can easily put you in touch with mnay that would welcome such help.

The requests for Proof of driving lanes, witness statements, protest letters et all often meet with a incredible lack of response from the 4x4 world, a lesson we could all learn from the RA who only a few years ago mounted campaigns with member support to die for....

Rant Over, but hope this spark geuine sensible deabte and not a slanging or slaging match as that is NOT what I intend from this reply

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

If anyone wishes to write to CRAG out of the public gaze then by all means please send an email to membership@crag-uk.org and we'll answer to the best of our ability.

In the interests of openness here is a list of the founding members of CRAG along with their roles within the group.

Dave Rogers - Chairman

Ray Dadd - Vice Chairman

Mark Margetts - Secretary

Pete Browning - Membership Officer

Jon Wildsmith - IT Officer

Paul Humphreys - Press Officer

Clive Richardson - Shropshire Regional Team Leader

Steve Mainwaring - Staffs Regional Team Leader

Mark Brenchley - Glos & Brecon Reg Team Leader

Jerry Herbert - BBNP Regional Team Leader

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Not exactly the reply I was hoping for

No further commnets or posts on the thread from me

Nige

[Les Henson]

With all respect Paul. that's just a list of names to me.

I recognise none of them.

What qualifies any of them to do the work you are proposing to do with our sponsorship?

I look forward to checking out your website.

All the questions you say that people should e-mail you to get answers to - wouldn't it be better to just post it?

Les.

[Paul Humphreys]

Hmmmmmmmmm

Divide and conquer ?....RA would approve methinks.

Prob with this sort of thing is frankly commitment. Talk is cheap, continous back room work by a few ongoingly and without let up has saved our day many times over. Mick Dyer of AWDC Fame has been someone who has selfishly driven thumped and moved mountains, with little press, praise or money asked for.

GLASS IMHO is a worthy and well proven voice in the battle for sanity, many others staert with guns blazin' good intentions and dreams, but soon get worn down or dispondent or just drift away for various reassons....

You may have a plan, but what are you going to do better / different / more than others, ?

What is you knowledge of the legal and technical areas that we are within ?...without doubt in my conversations with Liz Hurley / Mike Dyer and other the absolute indept knowledge, attyending meetinsg of councils / bodies and knowing the legal ins and outs is a must...

Its not I am casting dispersioons at you or your new club but you will come up against Money, legal begals, clever dicks, and red tape / law, and you need to know who and what is true and which is "Tugging your chain"...I have seen and heard of many who have been "Out Classed" by purely the fact they have been ridiculed at a public meeting as they are "best Intentioned" but "Outclassed".....

So, no website as yet, and little detail, what exactly does the £25 get everyone ?, what will you do differently to LARA GLASS and others ?....whats your background, legal knowledge and ptrevious involvement in ROW and the various legal frameworks that surround it ?

Sorry if this post appears negative, it not meant that way, but if you are really keen on getting involev big time, continously, and working away at the antis and the "Private agendas" that so many have then I can easily put you in touch with mnay that would welcome such help.

The requests for Proof of driving lanes, witness statements, protest letters et all often meet with a incredible lack of response from the 4x4 world, a lesson we could all learn from the RA who only a few years ago mounted campaigns with member support to die for....

Rant Over, but hope this spark geuine sensible deabte and not a slanging or slaging match as that is NOT what I intend from this reply

Nige

Sorry if its not the answer you wanted. But it was not ment to answer you questions. But I will give it a go now.

Divide and conquer?

That is not what we are trying to do, we are giving a choice.

Talk is cheap.

Then yes it is, all we can do is try our hardest, and let people see our results.

What is you knowledge of the legal and technical areas that we are within?

Well mine is not a lot if I am honest. But that it where we will ask others.

As for GLASS being well know, then yes they are, but could be held against them.

So, no website as yet?

It is being worken on and should go live on the 25th November. We would have liked to have waited till then, but their was talk of us(CRAG) doing the rounds. We decided to go public because of this. The member ship fees will help us seek legal advice if needed. Yes some people will ask "what do we get for £25" other will not and still become members. All I can say on that if someone dose not think its worth it then they can hold back for now, but they can still help us if they want.

I will always try to answer any questions the best I can, I like most will not always be right.

I hope this and the names of the founder members helps.

Paul

[Paul Humphreys]

With all respect Paul. that's just a list of names to me.

I recognise none of them.

What qualifies any of them to do the work you are proposing to do with our sponsorship?

I look forward to checking out your website.

All the questions you say that people should e-mail you to get answers to - wouldn't it be better to just post it?

Les.

Sorry Les I was typing as you posted.

If you need more then I will try to answer.

Paul

[Les Henson]

I will always try to answer any questions the best I can, I like most will not always be right.

I hope this and the names of the founder members helps.

I look forward to you doing that.

Les.

[muddyplugger]

So far, I still fail to see what CRAG can do better than GLass. (or even different).

I think another minority group with a handful members will have even less clout than LARA or GLass. I'm sticking with the bigger boys in the playground, thanks.

[Paul Humphreys]

So far, I still fail to see what CRAG can do better than GLass. (or even different).

I think another minority group with a handful members will have even less clout than LARA or GLass. I'm sticking with the bigger boys in the playground, thanks.

All I can say to that is we will try to be better time will tell. As for joining us or not then that is a personal matter.

Paul

[muddyplugger]

May I also say you are doing a good job as press officer!

I see this same thread is with other forums too. http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=13894

Good luck with the recruiting programme.

[Les Henson]

It seems that Glass is not too happy with what's going on (or at least one of their reps).

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=13894

Les.

[Neil Marshall]

I can understand the irritation about yet another group forming - all I can say is that if CRAG achieve something new, or inspire GLASS, LARA et al to find new energy to convince the regulators they are removing our rights, then that would be an enduring legacy. Below is an article from yesterday's Telegraph penned by yet another pressure group, the Trail Riders' Fellowship - airing the argument is of course an achievement in itself, but not enough to start winning battles, let alone the war. Time is also not on our side.

So CRAG now exists, like it or not, and I can only hope that they are moved to go one step further, to persuade commentators, regulators and Ministers to speak up for our rights of access. They do not have many weeks and they will need extremely well honed lobby skills to change the course of this legislation. We will all watch with interest. So my plea, Paul, is that you and your team make a robust game plan very quickly indeed, stick to it, make sure it is almost impossibly hard to achieve [because that is the nature of the problem we face] share it with the other interest groups and communicate the message widely, clearly and loudly to the right people. Oh and succeed - then everyone will take note of the new group.

Motorists face unsurfaced road ban

Daily Telegraph 05/11/2005

At its last parliamentary reading, the Natural Environment and Rural Communities (Nerc) Bill contained sections that will result in closing more than half of all vehicular rights of way.

Rumours abound that the anti-motoring lobby will go for broke during the Bill's passage through the Lords, extending the effect to all unsurfaced roads, writes Ian Packer of the Trail Riders Fellowship.

Even as it stands, the Bill will be devastating for the recreational motorist, rendering legal trail-riding and 4x4 use in some regions impossible or pointless. This is in spite of negotiations with DEFRA and minister Jim Knight, which had arrived at an equitable and sustainable process that DEFRA and the minister were apparently happy with.

The Institute of Public Rights of Way Officers stated earlier this year that vehicle use on Rights of Way (RoW) was "perceived as a problem, rather than actually being one".

Moreover, the Government's own Faber-Maunsell Report on the Impact of Motor Vehicle Use on Byways (2003) concluded that damage to unsealed RoW as a result of such use was minimal and that there were no grounds to assume that such use caused significant problems for other recreational users or those living in the countryside.

So what happened? During the Bill's passage through the Commons, politics and power took over from logic and reason. In early debates, Jim Knight had corrected the misinformed statements of those MPs set on banning vehicles at any cost, but then he seemed to join them.

Thus we are facing legislation that is likely to end a much-loved pastime, damage businesses and restrict access to the countryside to the fit and able-bodied, based on uninformed claims given to MPs by the Rambler community. Under the right to roam, walkers have access to 100 per cent of the country's trails and more than 95 per cent of them are already closed to vehicles, but it seems this is not enough.

This has been achieved by giving the impression that the Nerc Bill will stop the nuisance-use of vehicles in the countryside and town parks. Yet as the hooligans in question are already there illegally, why will they suddenly now stop at the introduction of a new law? Didn't we have this scenario with handguns? Those who enjoyed their use in clubs, under carefully certified conditions, lost them, while gun crime soared.

Much has been made of the fact that the Trail Riders Fellowship (TRF), which I represent, has been applying for byway status for many trails. This has been presented as "claiming new byways", the implication being that new vehicular routes are being created.

This is absolute nonsense. The TRF and others have simply been applying for existing vehicular rights to be correctly recorded, because the RoW Act of 2000 required it. The task of research and correct recording has been given to local councils since at least 1968, but most have done little. Now we are to be punished for local authority failures and our own success at picking up the task.

There are claims that these unsurfaced roads exist through the legal loophole that cart and carriage rights give rise to motor-vehicle rights. This is nonsense, too. These same rights were given to provide the legal framework for the creation of our asphalt road network. Unsurfaced roads are simply those that escaped the tar machine.

What is more, the effects of this Bill will go well beyond trail riders and 4x4 users. Fans of outdoor sports, including the disabled, will lose their access to the countryside, especially where a 4x4 is the only practical form of transport. Rural householders and businesses may even find themselves landlocked without legal access, held to ransom by an unscrupulous landowner. Yes, they may apply for an "easement" but this can result in a lengthy bureaucratic process and an unpredictable public inquiry.

So how should we deal with nuisance vehicles? We must first accept the demand for sensible recreational activity. The public must be informed of a trail's vehicular status, rather than it being obscured. Signs and maps must be clear, with motorists retaining access to the unsurfaced road network, which is less than five per cent of all trails, leaving the remaining 95 per cent to people who wish to avoid vehicles.

Target resources at anti-noise legislation, the enforcement of existing laws, and, most of all, use the principles of tolerance and management, rather than "nanny-state" bans.

Neil

[Paul Humphreys]

Thanks Neil, we will try to do the best job we can. As for being Press Officer, then untill someone better comes along I will carry along.

Les as for GLASS having a go at us then a quote from a GLASS EXEC

"Yep. A group of individuals, some members of GLASS, have decided that

our actions and inactions, as an Organisation cannot be reconciled with

their requirements for RoW support for MPV users. Hence, they've done

very few ever do and have actually done something about it - in this

case by forming their own group."

Paul

[Les Henson]

I didn't say GLASS was having a go at you, what I said was:-

It seems that Glass is not too happy with what's going on (or at least one of their reps).

A big difference in my book.

Les.

[Neil Marshall]

Background: This post appeared on Friday on the Mud Club Forum - from Cadman [Gary Lawes], an Executive Council Member of GLASS, to Paul Humphreys:

1. As an area rep for GLASS, it would seem to be inappropriate to establish a rival organisation. A dignified approach would have been to resign first, prior to forming a seemingly competing organisation. I would hope that CRAG is not founded on such ethics.

2. GLASS, TRF and LARA combined are themselves small fry compared to the scale of the anti’s, further fragmentation further plays into their hands.

3. The urgency and quantity of work that we have had to undertake in response to NERC have brought GLASS and TRF together closer and better than ever before, the enemy has shown its hand and we finally have something concrete to go after. It is a shame when so much positive is happening, to have what has obviously been co-ordinated, persistent anti GLASS activity undermining the hard work of volunteers working for the benefit of us all. I hope this has nothing to do with the formation of CRAG.

4. GLASS in conjunction with TRF and LARA is investing tens of thousands of pounds in fighting the NERC bill. I struggle to see what a startup organisation can do to assist in such a battle, and obviously every GLASS/TRF member that moves to CRAG will further weaken our position and be detrimental to greenlaning as a whole.

5. I fully appreciate that from the outside GLASS may have seemed relatively inactive during this critical time, and there is no doubt we were caught cold, having been foolish enough to trust this two faced back stabbing government. But trust me from that moment on the work has been incessant, co-ordinated and very thorough, we are lucky to have some exceptional legal minds on the GLASS exec. Please understand the lack of visibility is an essential part of what is happening.

6. GLASS is a totally voluntary organisation, a lot of very good and hardworking people give up a great deal of their time fighting for our hobby, I for one get very angry when I hear their efforts being rubbished. I know for sure it will take years for a new start organisation to achieve the levels of skill, financial resource and capability of GLASS, right now we only have weeks !

Paul, as I said I am on the GLASS exec. But the above is my personal view, good luck with the venture and enjoy your laning, but please don't suggest for one minute that what you are doing is anything but negative to the cause.

Paul's reply:

I can not speak for the other founding members of CRAG. I do know that A top member of GLASS (carnt remember his name as I did not speak to him) was told of this going public this morning. I take it he had not passed on this information. I will try to answer your points from my point of view, this may not as the rest of CRAG see it.

1, I can not say to much about this as all of the founding members are/were members of GLASS, dose this say some thing about GLASS?

2, WE aim to work with LARA and the TRF if possible and maybe GLASS.

3, CRAG was formed by a group of people that felt that others were not done in he best way possible. As for volunteers then I was down at Sarn Helen tlast week, so were other founding members of CRAG.

4, On this one time will tell. We aim to work with County Councils and not just fight them as this was and is working.

5, I do agree with the bit "having been foolish enough to trust this two faced back stabbing government." But I was at the GLASS AGM.

6, CRAG is a totally voluntary organisation but was formed by people who have become disillusioned with the way thing have been done by other "groups".

As you this is my personal view and maybe not the same as the one taken by CRAG.

Time will tell if we get it right or not, we aim to do the best job we can. People will support us or not depending on how they feel and belive.

[Bigfoot]

I would tend to agree with Les' and HFH's initial comments, but it seems Paul's heart is certainly in the right place

[MarkieB]

an article from yesterday's Telegraph penned by yet another pressure group, the Trail Riders' Fellowship - airing the argument is of course an achievement in itself, but not enough to start winning battles, let alone the war. Time is also not on our side.

Motorists face unsurfaced road ban

Daily Telegraph 05/11/2005

surprisingly readable, I suppose for obvious reasons. Of course as they say, once a bill has got that far, it's merely a matter of time until it is law — as with fox hunting.

Makes Nelly Olin's idea sound positively reasonable; while recently in Africa I remember a few very past-their-best 2wd datsun cabs driving along a piste that could only vaguely be referred to as a road, I daresay a few pictures of what African [eg] cars achieve could be persuasive to a court that 'that road was passable to a 2wd', although knowing the French, they'll be looking to lynch her for the killjoy aspect!

Of course that leads neatly into the other reason people'll need real 4wd vehicles either way; the state of those datsun cabs; 2wd suspension/drive gear isn't really designed for that kind of work, so the rate of repair is that much higher

[Paul Humphreys]

I didn't say GLASS was having a go at you, what I said was:-

A big difference in my book.

Les.

If I were GLASS then I might not be happy with it.

As for sponsorship as I said in my pm to you. I will make a personal donnation when i can, as I am not a rich man. CRAG is not able to offer sponsorship a this point in time.

But on GLASS heres a quote from a GLASS exec.

"Yep. A group of individuals, some members of GLASS, have decided that

our actions and inactions, as an Organisation cannot be reconciled with

their requirements for RoW support for MPV users. Hence, they've done

very few ever do and have actually done something about it - in this

case by forming their own group."

Paul

I would tend to agree with Les' and HFH's initial comments, but it seems Paul's heart is certainly in the right place

Thanks for that.

Paul