This months LRW magazine

[Michele]

You naughty boy!

So she not only likes Rovers but has a good sense of humour as well!

Cool!

Jim mate did you fling her the link to this thread already?

[Buzz]

Oh that one, had a nose over that at Billing. For £50k I'd be expecting something a bit more special than a 90 with a coat of polish and some bolted-on tat, no matter how neatly it's bolted on.

Its a 110 Trayback, not a 90, and I don't think that trayback was just bolted on! I'm not aware of any trayback kits that you can buy and bolt on to your truck, but I stand to be corrected.

Buzz.

[roguevogue]

Its a 110 Trayback, not a 90, and I don't think that trayback was just bolted on! I'm not aware of any trayback kits that you can buy and bolt on to your truck, but I stand to be corrected.

Buzz.

If I took 800 hours (20 full weeks, thats 5 months of full time employment) to do that much fabrication and bolting on then I would expect to be unemployed.

[Guest WALFY]

Not defending them but 800 hrs could be for 1 man. If 2 are employed then it comes to 400 hrs total. And so on. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter how you look at it this is not a veh that is achievable by the average man. Not only in man hrs but the facilitys.

Nick, I do agree to the average business they couldn't support that type of project without penaltys either financialy or to their customer base.

[FridgeFreezer]

Buzz - so they bent some tube and waved a welder about, it's still not rocket science. I've seen it in the flesh at Billing, it's very tidy but really not as special as the attention it gets, and certainly for 800 hours and 50k I'd go so far as to say it's rather disappointing. There are far better trucks out there built for a fraction of that budget and with less facilities.

Walfy - what exactly isn't achievable about a 110 with some tube and some bolt-on bits? OK most of us would farm out the tube work but that's maybe £500 worth, the rest is off-the-shelf or DIYable. That's partly why the truck is so generic, because they need to advertise all the bolt-on stuff they sell so need to keep as much Defender in it as possible.

I swear most of the time Devon spend building vehicles is putting P-clips everywhere so LR journos can kiss up about the "attention to detail", and frankly if someone was paying me £40 per hour to stick P-clips everywhere I'd be laughing.

Nice of them to use a V8 though, I wonder how long it is before all the EXTREME sheep start switching away from diseasals?

[Guest WALFY]

Fridge

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my reasoning. The mag says that this veh is achievable to the average man and implies the price isn't that bad. Well bugger me 40k for a 110 with some as you say nice bolt on bits is way out of my range. I've just spent 2k at Ashcrofts and I had to think long and hard to justify it. So 40k is not an amount I can comprehend spending on a car. Good luck to those that can. I'm definitely a poor offroader. No chequebook near me.

[Buzz]

Buzz - so they bent some tube and waved a welder about, it's still not rocket science. I've seen it in the flesh at Billing, it's very tidy but really not as special as the attention it gets, and certainly for 800 hours and 50k I'd go so far as to say it's rather disappointing. There are far better trucks out there built for a fraction of that budget and with less facilities.

The cost for the build was 15K if I remember correctly, it only grows to 50K when you include the labour cost, and I'm sure if we all included the our labour cost into our builds then our trucks would seem rather expensive too!

Having read the full build I can see where most of that time has gone, and the end result is a capable truck that went straight out and won the event it was built for, thats not bad in my book. I don't think we should be so quick to knock a 4x4 supplier that actually has the ability, knowledge and experience to build a vehicle that can win events. There are many suppliers out there that haven't got a clue about how their products work when their actually out in the field, but are still happy to sell you their sub standard tat.

Buzz.

[GBMUD]

The cost for the build was 15K if I remember correctly, it only grows to 50K when you include the labour cost, and I'm sure if we all included the our labour cost into our builds then our trucks would seem rather expensive too!

Having read the full build I can see where most of that time has gone, and the end result is a capable truck that went straight out and won the event it was built for, thats not bad in my book. I don't think we should be so quick to knock a 4x4 supplier that actually has the ability, knowledge and experience to build a vehicle that can win events. There are many suppliers out there that haven't got a clue about how their products work when their actually out in the field, but are still happy to sell you their sub standard tat.

Buzz.

I agree with much of what you say Buzz and I am certainly not knocking D4x4s commitment and ability in building, running and driving a winning car. What I cannot fathom is where all the time went. Since I do not buy the comics, would you care to suggest where so much time was used? I mean, 5 months really is a long time.

Cheers

Chris

[Guest WALFY]

Again I'm not knocking them or the veh but to say that sort of build is within easy reach of the average person is rubbish. What takes a trained time served professional 800 hrs is going to double for the average person. Perhaps I'm just a little jealous of the truck/workshop/craftmanship? Just wish I had a hundreth of the knowledge/time/capability

[treebloke]

Are you lads getting Devon 4x4 mixed up with Scrapiron.

The guy built a truck and won a competion, a Land Rover mag did an article. I bought the mag and read it, passed away an hour, no big deal.

Why slag him off? who cares how long it took. I work on mine three nights a week and sat afternoons and no article and never win anything but I blame the Mrs.

[Buzz]

Having read the full build on their site, and seen the result of their work, I can see where the times gone.

Buzz.

[FridgeFreezer]

Not saying it's carp, it's a tidy truck, just that the amount that went in doesn't seem to be reflected in the result. I'd expect a place like Devon could turn out a truck like that in a couple of weeks, not months. They used at least 95% Land Rover bits or bolt-ons, it's not like they were building a tubular buggy, doing axle swaps, dropping in a non-LR engine, etc.

Walfy - cheer up, that sort of build is well within reach, anything you need is on this forum. As I said, people on here have built far better vehicles with a fraction of the resources, trawl through some of the builds in the members' vehicles forum, you may be surprised what's on your doorstep.

Sure they spent £15k on bits, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. That's why I don't work for the RSPCA. Let's break it down to see how much it would cost to emulate the Devon effort:

Base vehicle - You don't need an R-reg if you're replacing everything, so budget say £2k tops for a solid old 110.

Cage - Not everyone has a tube bender in their garage, so say £750 for getting a grown-up to cage it.

Engine - They used a tuned GEMS 4.6 so that will have cost them dear. Assuming we're on a budget, a decent 3.9 will set you back £300, add MegaSquirt'n'EDIS say £400 and some elbow grease. You could also spend very similar money putting a TDi in. Either way, you have a waterproof power source.

Box - if you bought a V8 110 it's all there, if not say £200 for a good 2nd hand LT77 or ZF.

Winches - If you can live without bling you can find yourself with a pair of winches in the drive system of your choice for £1k or less installed.

Wheels & Tyres - you can't whittle tyres from nothing, so you're probably going to be looking at £500 - £1000 for a set of something chunky in a reasonable diameter.

Drivetrain - If you can live with a bit of mechanical sympathy you've got a salisbury on the back, if not you're into money but there are alternatives like axle swaps which can work out cheaper for the sake of some hard work. Lockers are in the same boat.

Suspension - A set of springs and some dislocation cones is cheap and would give perfectly acceptable articulation, £300 should do it.

Which leaves us with... farting about bolting bling on. Steering guards, diff guards, snorkels, etc.. You can buy expensive ones, you can buy cheap ones, you can make them yourself, you can look where you're going

I reckon from the list above you're looking at 5-6k, which could go up or down depending on what you've got to hand, any lucky finds you may make, eBay, etc. Obviously if you were intending to challenge Mr Buck for his trophy you'd need to do things more thoroughly than if you just wanted a similar vehicle to play with.

If you were really on a budget and willing to wait / compromise on a few things (buy secondhand, make stuff yourself, etc.) I reckon you could bring it in under £3k but probably without the shiny colour scheme.

[Buzz]

The 110's build started on the 2nd of March and it was on the ferry on the 23rd of April, thats not bad going! Even if the hours total to 800.

Pulled from the 110's build thread:

"All the parts used eg; winches lockers, lights tyre ect were new came to the grand total of £15,000.93+vat which is £17,626.09.

Labour was just over £25,000+vat.

All prices are calculated at retail prices, quite obviously if one were to buy carefully and carry out the work yourself you could easily bring the project in at under £15000. Whilst not cheap it is certainly not expensive for the world of motor sport."

Buzz.

[sheeppimp]

I'm not picking holes here, the 110 went out and did what they wanted it too but:

25k labour @ £40+VAT works out to 625hrs

or

25k labour for 800hrs is £31.25+VAT

someone somehwere's got some figures wrong and it still would have been a full time project to build in what 8 weeks?

[Guest WALFY]

FF

Yes I know whre you are coming from but I hate to owe people money/favours etc. And I feel guilty about asking for favours. Therefore I don't get much done to my truck. Also I needed it as my daily drive to work so it couldn't be that radical. Now I have a 3rd car I can afford to make mine the toy and still have 2 cars to run around in. Time will tell if this all pans out.

TreeBloke

Not knocking the bloke at all. It's the way the mags have misconstrued the truth. They paint a very glossy sheen to this build. Yes it is a very nice truck built to exacting standards but the sums don't add up. It almost seems as if the mags are saying because Simon built it it is worth loads. As FF has just laid out you could get away with a lower spec veh. BUT it wouldn't be able to compete at the same level. In all honesty could the average person on here spend that sort of money , drive to an event and then expect to win. Don't think so.

Any way Giggle came second. No mag write up of his veh yet? As it was a Brit 1 2 you'd of expected the mag to do a full feature on th both of them. Or did Jim's truck cost 10k (?) and wasn't built in a bling workshop with all the gear nicely laid out. Nothing against Jim's workshop apart from it's bloody cold but it doesn't compare to D4x4 but it can still turn out a very respectable challenge truck. And he didn't spend ages taking pic of every stage of the build and loading them onto a website for us all to swoon over(?) That's where the cost is not the build but the staff to sort his website out. Cut them out and then hi overheads go down, labour goes down then the truckcosts a few grand less.!

Rant over

[FridgeFreezer]

Yes I know whre you are coming from but I hate to owe people money/favours etc. And I feel guilty about asking for favours. Therefore I don't get much done to my truck. Also I needed it as my daily drive to work so it couldn't be that radical. Now I have a 3rd car I can afford to make mine the toy and still have 2 cars to run around in. Time will tell if this all pans out.

I know what you mean, I was quite lucky in that I did Jez a favour wiring Petal and he was daft enough to offer to help with my build in return (he won't make that mistake again ) you could always follow Jen's model and offer people tea & cookies if they come round & help, it certainly seems to work. As I said, the answer to most questions can be found here, and there's hidden treasure in the members' vehicles forum.

On the Devon truck I suspect winning the event has more to do with the vehicle prep & support than the specs of the vehicle.

[nicks90]

i think some people are missing the point on this....

the d4x4 truck is built for 2 purposes

1 - build a very nice competitive truck to take part in the morocco OBC

2 - advertise d4x4 merchandise and business via their website, a good result in a competition and subsequent advertising by themselves and through magazine features.

Regardless of how much labour it took and the hourly rate they assigned to that labour - the parts prices are i think quite reasonable for what they ended up with, D4x4 stuff isnt exactly the cheapest gear on the market!

and i bet that engine cost a pretty packet.

i like their truck, but i do agree that it could be done cheaper. But that wasnt the point of the build was it! Its a promotional platform with the added bonus of being bloody competitive.

[GBMUD]

It's the way the mags have misconstrued the truth. They paint a very glossy sheen to this build. Yes it is a very nice truck built to exacting standards but the sums don't add up. It almost seems as if the mags are saying because Simon built it it is worth loads....

Any way Giggle came second. No mag write up of his veh yet? As it was a Brit 1 2 you'd of expected the mag to do a full feature on th both of them. Or did Jim's truck cost 10k (?) and wasn't built in a bling workshop with all the gear nicely laid out. Nothing against Jim's workshop apart from it's bloody cold but it doesn't compare to D4x4 but it can still turn out a very respectable challenge truck. .....

Do you think that advertising spend (and show trade stand size?) may have had some influence on the mags coverage of the D4x4 110? They seem to jump around very excitedly when any big advertiser builds a Landrover out of a standard Landrover and some bolt on goodies.

I have not seen it to comment on the quality of construction though I am sure that it is of a very high standard. Are we thinking that the 800 hours might be a Chinese wisper? Anyone know who first stated that figure?

Chris

[Guest WALFY]

Of course it does Chris. I don't think anyone on here is naive enough to think that isn't the case. The advertising budget must be quite big to have full page in all the comics. So it's just a small thank you for all the cash the spend with the mags. But it still is a very nice truck. I did have a look at it at a show last year. Can't remember which 1 though. Where the Bowler Nemisis went whizzing around the arena. Nice workmanship and attention to detail but the write up isn't 100% true with it's figures. Now that might be down to D4x4 (doubt it) or an over enthusiastic journo over inflating the times/prices etc. Without Simon coming on and stating exactly what went on no one will ever know for sure.

When I do my sums on what I spend, if I spend 180 quid that beomes 200 for ease of calculation. So if Devon put in 7hrs work on a Monday that becomes 8hrs as in 1 working day. The odd hr here and there do mount up.

DISCLAIMER I assume the normal person works an 8hr day?

[GBMUD]

Steady Mark, 'work' is a four letter word!

Chris

[pugwash]

DISCLAIMER I assume the normal person works an 8hr day?

well the average worked on this forum is probably 8 hours.

There's a whole load of self employed people (like TJ101, Treebloke, etc etc) who probably push that average right up,

then there's the GBMUDs of the world, who average about a half hour a week (that' getting you back for the coment on my daren gap thread ) and the army types who don't manage even that much as they seem to delude themselves that strapping 50kg of HE to a bridge and blowing it up counts as work (you know who you are walfy)

[Guest diesel_jim]

Back on topic, wherever it might have dissapeared to....

I had 2 extremely apologetic and explanitory emails from John Carroll and Kev Baldwin today explaining the situaton.

Looks like i caused a bit of a ruckuss in the LRW offices... whoops!

[V8CAMEL]

Do you think that advertising spend (and show trade stand size?) may have had some influence on the mags coverage of the D4x4 110? They seem to jump around very excitedly when any big advertiser builds a Landrover out of a standard Landrover and some bolt on goodies.

I have not seen it to comment on the quality of construction though I am sure that it is of a very high standard. Are we thinking that the 800 hours might be a Chinese wisper? Anyone know who first stated that figure?

Chris

me i started it

the article stated 15K + 800 hours one would hope that the Devon 4x4 PR machine would have proof read the article before allowing publication

I never meant this as have ago at simon and devon 4x4 but more that the information in articles is very misleading. The inference was that the truck cost 15K to build and had taken 800 hours of work.

though looking at the spec on the website i cant see how it was done for 15k.

[FridgeFreezer]

Looks like i caused a bit of a ruckuss in the LRW offices... whoops!

Sir, I applaud you. These people have been writing mags forever and are often touted as experts to those who don't know better. They should be able to get it right by now. If I was as bad at my job as they are I'd expect trouble.

[Devon 4x4]

:D

What a laugh...

I've been reading through this thread, and I reckon that some of you boys have some very strange ideas about how we work down here.

As has been mentioned by a few people, the purpose of the 110 build was twofold....

1) To build a competitive, reliable vehicle for competing in OBC Morrocco and similar events

2) As a devlopment platform / showcase for the products we sell.

There are no big secrets here, one of the reasons we documented the whole build was to show people that what we were doing was well within the reach of "normal" people, whether they used the parts / specs we used, or lower spec alternatives. The cost of the bits was indeed around £15K (plus VAT), we deliberately split the costs of parts and labour out because the home builder tends not to charge for that ;-)

The 800 hours being thrown around includes a lot of design and tinkering time... things like the rear winch cage, exhaust system, trayback, storage, fuel system, etc. etc. all have to be made, and ideally made in such a way that we can reproduce them for customers if required. We also work in ways that maybe a DIY mechanic might not. Things like building up big chunks of the vehicle, then taking them all apart again for painting, etc. etc. The time also included a full engine rebuild, reworking axles, etc. etc. Could it have been done quicker ? Who knows... It was done in the time it took.

We do spend a fair bit on advertising, but I genuinely don't believe that is why the magazines wanted to run an article about our truck... I think that they felt it would be of interest to their readers... and I hope it was. What I can tell you is that it was one of the most popular threads on our forum ever, and is still one of the most viewed parts of our website... so rightly or wrongly, people seem to like reading about it.

Now, a couple of things which have made me smile in particular.... for anyone who thinks we are some kind of Formula 1 style slick workshop operation with dozens of staff employed on projects... you obviously haven't been here. Our workshops are superb, there is no denying it... they are kept clean and tidy, the equipment is well maintained, but they are staffed by "normal" people, people who work really hard to achieve the results they do.

Take a look at the Range Rover Bobtail build on the site... it was done in a shed, with basic tools. We appreciate the facilities we have, but they are not the reason that we build vehicles the way we do.

The "Devon 4x4 PR team" and "staff who build their website"... that'll be me then

(I also took a load of the photos of the build, as did Simon and the guys who were actually doing the work.)

If anyone wants more information, we'll always be happy to talk to people about the projects..

Keep it coming, it keeps us amused in the office

Cheers

Tim