Tdi Intercoolers

[JST]

Right, its been covered before i know but what i would like is first hand experience rather than speculation.

I am thinking through the pros and cons of changing the std sized intercooler on my 200tdi for a hi-flow version (probably Brunel). i cant fit a full flow one and dont want to anyway.

My vehicle has already had the pump tweaked a bit from std.

So, who's fitted a std size (only) high flow rate intercooler to an already tweaked pump tdi and what difference did you actually find (ideally over a tweaked pump std intercooler setup) i am trying to find the benefit of a hi flow intercooler rather than pump tweaking etc so if you fitted the intercooler and teweaked the pump at the same time that probably wont help me in this case.-

make

less smoke (mot test results?)

better acceleration

no difference

would you buy another

Thank you in advance

[winx]

I fitted a Brunel one about a year ago, the pump had already been tweaked but they did make a few tiny adjustments...

To start with I was a little underwhelmed, I suppose I had been expecting a completely different car! However it did make a difference, it does seem to pull a lot better and it is much smoother at higher revs. This could also be the new bottom pipe that I had at the same time to take the restriction out. (apparently they used the same hose for lhd and rhd cars and there is an indentation in it to clear the steering box on LHD.

Overall I would recommend Brunel as they were very helpful spending ages on the phone with me beforehand discussing the options. If I had my time again I would buy another one as the difference was worth it for me.

[white90]

I have the standard width Alisport version that offers 40% more surface area

with pump tweaks it made some difference but nothing major and in real terms not really hign value for the ££ spent.

why do you want to change yours?

[Mo Murphy]

James,

I have a Twisted Performance Std Sized intercooler which I added to the already tweaked setup. It hasn't made much difference TBH. However, lower intake temperature has probably led to lower EGT which means that I have scope to tweak the FIP some more Certainly, the highest I've reached is 670degC and that was absolutely flat out on a long steep motorway hill, not my normal way of approaching this particular hill

HTH

Mo

[Steve 90]

Usually within minutes of unloading mines so blocked with mud it cant cool the air anyway!

[JST]

just toying with the idea but i dont think from above its going to be worth it, especially as it only does about 2miles a year and thats to the MOT station and back (thank you Mark, Steve, Jase before you mention it)

I was thinking it would allow me to run it at its current fuelling and not smoke quite so much!

[white90]

Save the ££ then

[Orgasmic Farmer]

James

my MOT tester reckons TDis DO NOT fail the emissions test. Period. My pump is turned up and it smokes when gunned but was way under the limit. Steve's 90, which is turned up off the clock, has a striaght through exhaust, and smokes like a pikeys tyre fire, also flew through the test. Must add, the tester has just invested in brand-new equipment )before steves truck was tested).

TBH at competition speeds an intercooler can't be doing that much, can it?

[ciderman]

just toying with the idea but i dont think from above its going to be worth it, especially as it only does about 2miles a year and thats to the MOT station and back (thank you Mark, Steve, Jase before you mention it)

I was thinking it would allow me to run it at its current fuelling and not smoke quite so much!

While your at it on the front end get that ruddy seal fixed on your winch brake shaft , before it all rusts internaly

TBH at competition speeds an intercooler can't be doing that much, can it?

couldnt agree more Pikey

[JST]

ummmm,

mine struggles at MOT time bit then hes also got the new tester and the td5 smokes and that flew past with 0.5K the lowest its ever been

not for comp speeds more for onroad i was thinking

winch - done that already

[BigSi110]

If you're concerned with too much smoke, maybe you need to re-adjust the pump instead of spending money on a new intercooler?

Fitting an uprated intercooler seems like an awfully cack-handed way of trying to reduce smoke.

However, if you're looking for genuine performance gains then my Brunel intercooler on top of a pump tweak worked well for me. That was then followed by a further small pump tweak.

If you want more power and less smoke, then why not fit a switchable LPG-injection system instead which'll clean out your engine a tad and give you another 25 horses when activated?

[Darren]

I had an Allisport standard sized replacement intercooler fitted to my 300tdi Discovery and the difference, eventually, was pretty fantastic. Some years earlier I'd had the pump optimized by Van Aaken, primarily to offset the slightly bigger tyres, roof rack and other weighty goodies that I'd added, which worked quiote well at the time. However, knowing this Allisport still recommended that I could benefit from their own pump re-setting so I let them fit it. They also checked the turbo boost but didn't need to alter that.

Initially, the gains didn't seem that impressive but Allisort had warned me that it would take a few hundred miles for the additional airflow to clean out some of the accumulated gunk in the manifold. I was quite sceptical, but they'd been highly recommended so I decided to give it some time and see. In the end, it took closer to 1200 miles but one day it suddenly dawned on me that the truck had a lot more get up and go. Gear changes weren't needed so often and the engine just felt a lot more willing. Smoke was virtually zero, too. I'm not sure about changes to fuel consumption as my daily driving doesn't lend itself to decent MPG figures anyway (lots of short journeys). Unfortunately, I sold it not long after this as I was seduced by a V8 DII (which was a mistake that I'm still kicking myself about - ho hum).

Having said all that, for your particular application it would seem to make sense to get the fueling right for the current set-up first before adding anything else.

Fueling issues aside, if you do a lot of low speed work then have you considered fitting an electric fan to the intercooler?

[Les Henson]

my MOT tester reckons TDis DO NOT fail the emissions test.

I've had three fail on emissions this year - excessive smoke in all of them.

Les.

[Lara]

ummmm,

mine struggles at MOT time bit then hes also got the new tester and the td5 smokes and that flew past with 0.5K the lowest its ever been

not for comp speeds more for onroad i was thinking

winch - done that already

If all you are worried about is a little more power and less smoke, just up the boost a few pounds, problem solved!

I know more need for intercooler etc but a few miles a year etc, no problem

Lara,

Try it, it's free

[GBMUD]

In my experience Tdis need to be properly warmed up before the test in order to pass reliably. By warmed up I mean driven a distance of not less then 10 miles on A-roads so that the water, oil and fuel systems are all properly hot and at ideal working temperature. Ignore the fact that the gauge says it is warm within a couple of miles, it means that there is hot water at the sender, nothing more. My old Tdi 90 knows a bit about smoking but never came close to failing an MOT.

Chris

[discojmz]

mine has an excessive smoke failure in its history (200tdi) half wondering whether something on the pump has been turned down (smoke screw perhaps) to compensate for this. but since ive had it, it has not smoked at all. hmmmm

[upnover4x4]

Rather than uprating the intercooler is it worth thinking about a turbo which will spin up at lower eng speeds.

Ive been toying with the idea of moving intercooler from from grille to above the engine area. Aka like suburu do. My only concern is the mounting of cooler & heat dissipation from the engine. I dont really think Im going to notice massive cooling benifits unless theres a decent air duct above the engine & vehicles travelling at speed tho..

How easy is it to tweak the fuel pump on a 200tdi, & does it req a gas analyser for best results?

Adrian

[JST]

When i got the truck the fuel pump had been adjusted by the previous owner - who couldnt remember what he had adjusted or by how much.

Over the last 2 years or i have tried to get it back to the original setting by trial and error (i dont want to pay to get it done properly! - yes i know) the diaphragm is pretty easy to sort and thats now back to std its just the others i am struggling with. Several people have also looked and tried to sort it in the past each time its got closer (i reckon) to the std setting.

The current setting its now on is ideal for what i want it for but it smokes alot on overrun (black smoke) or if its been idling and then given full acceleration, or full power under load, mind you its not as bad as Pikeys or Steves! It will just pass the MOT like this if as Chris mentions shes nice and warm.

So rather than adjust the fuelling i was thinking of the intercooler for the full power on road scenarios

but sounds like i need to play around with the full flow screw a little more?

[Guest WALFY]

After reading this it reminds me I must get round to tweaking my Fuel pump. Mine is standard could do with a bit more every now and again.

[Porny]

Personnally I'd do a few other things before I fit a different cooler.... The standard LR intercooler isn't 'that' bad.

Make sure the timing is 100% spot on - and you can even run the pump a little bit advanced for a bit more.

Check turbo boost pressure - as standard should be 0.8bar - but a healthy 200Tdi will run 1bar or 1.2bar all day long without a problem even on a standard cooler (1.2bar or 17psi is about the limit for the turbo before it becomes inefficient)

Flush your current intercooler out.

Have the injectors checked and cleaned.

Play with the pump a bit more, or take it off and have it reclaibrated.

Ian

[discojmz]

a few things have long confused me about this. i must be missing some fundamental principles of how my engine functions.

since it has no throttle body to control airflow, the control is within the pump and controls the amount of fuel, the air is consumed as required for the correct burn?

when on boost, the pressure moves the diaphragm and increases the amount of fuel to compensate for the now increased amount of forcibly inducted air?

so if i were to increase the boost to 1bar, will the fuel pump add fuel to suit or will it burn lean? can it burn lean?

likewise increasing the fueling, will that make it overfuel? can it overfuel? and by what method is this best done? does rotating the diaphragm to increase the ramp only affect fueling on boost?

ive been privvy to so many seemingly conflicting or confusing pieces of advice regarding gaining increased power from my engine, i would love for someone to give a definitive answer as to 'doing this will increase this, but you do or dont need to do this also' type advice.

im looking your way Ian

jim

[Les Henson]

When you press the accelerator you increase the amount of fuel injected into the engine. The engine then takes as much air as it needs - restricted by the diameter of the air intake pipework and air filter.

Les.

[freeagent]

following from what Les said, Colder air is denser and contains more energy, hence more bang per m3 of air you shove through the engine..

larger intercooler pipework, and a free-flowing air filter may increase the volume of air, the intercooler only lowers its temp, condensing it slightly.

there will always be something that you can't improve, that still restricts air volume/presure/temp... the standard sized turbo springs to mind...

my personal opinion is bigger intercoolers are wasted in challange trucks as the rely on the flow of cold air through them to cool the inlet charge (its actually an air-air heat exchanger) as there is no fan to drag air through the intercooler its doing nothing while you are bogged down in mud or crawling on rocks at 2mph.

for challenge trucks it might be worth putting a fan on the intercooler (i think escourt RS turbos might have had this arrangement, if not its a common mod) to drag air through it.

the other way to go might be a charge cooler (water-air) which uses water as a medium to dump heat from the inlet charge...

[discojmz]

When you press the accelerator you increase the amount of fuel injected into the engine. The engine then takes as much air as it needs - restricted by the diameter of the air intake pipework and air filter.

Les.

yeah that's what i said (i think?) and im fully aware of the charge temperature part. its more a case of the specifics of turbocharging im concerned with.

evidently it would seem the turbo is there for the point at which the above restrictions stop the engine drawing enough free air on its own to cope with the fuel. so it would seem to me that the fueling and boost pressure are both linked and adjusting one means adjustment will be required to the other??

for example increasing the fueling means the point at which the engine requires more air than it can draw without forced induction comes sooner? and the increase of fuel means more air also required thus more boost??

[will_warne]

James,

I've got an Allisport normal sized I/C and it did bring down the EGT quite a bit on road. It won't give you noticably more power (possibly 1 - 2 bhp on a cold day) but it will allow you to tweek more. Having said that, your car does very few road miles and I'm guess they're not at full throttle. Most 'challenge' type cars only use full throttle for short bursts so the I/C is more acting as a heat soak (at best given the poor airflow) or doing nothing (at worst when clogged with mud). If you're not planning on going silly then I wouldn't bother with a new intercooler even then its probably an extravigance given the very short bursts of full throttle it'll get. However, I would try gas flowing it as this is what JE do for they're stage one Tdi kit so clearly it makes a differance.