Category B Driving Licence questions

[casey_cole]

I am 18, I just bought a 110 county station wagon (in a consortium with 4 others for use over this summer before uni - we love it!).

I have held a standard category B driving licence for under 1 year.

Our landy has (in addition to the drivers seat) the front passenger seat, three front facing folding seats in the middle and two sideways facing bench seats in the back (all as normal etc.)

Now - there are seatbelts on all the seats - but each of the rear sideways bench seats has 3 seat belts. 2+3+(3+3) = 11 seatbelts for 11 bums on seats.

The Important Bit:

Does this mean that I cannot legally drive this land rover as with my category B licence I can only drive "Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than 8 passenger seats"

This thing has 10 passenger seat belts - so am I allowed to drive it? Or are all my friends too thin, and actually the rear seats are only designed for 2 - but were bumphed up to 3 by the previous owner (a school) to serve as a minibus.

Am I stuffed up a creek with no CAT D...?

CC

[Ivan]

Take the seatbelts out. Just leave enough in to match your licence requirements (8). 110's can be up to 11 seats, nothing to say they have to have 11 seats.

HTH

Ivan

[wkw90]

Could you not just take some rear seats and seat belts out ?

[m0bcg]

you can drive it but not with more than 8 people in it .

as for weight the 110 will be 3050kg .

it is a class 7 MOT but this only means it cant be tested in a normal garage that does only cars up to 3000kg , instead it has to be tested at a garage that does small commercial vehicles like ford transit or merc sprinter vans .

i think class D1 is for mini buses .

you are basically saying there are 6 seats in rear plus the 5 seats up in the front .

well you could pull the 6 seats out of the back and then it becomes a 5 seater , or you could fold the middle seats down and then its an 8 seater .

with my landy 90 the insurance company didnt seem to have a category for a 7 seater landrover , its usually no more than 5 seats they seemed to think .

if you convert the 110 so it has only 8 seats then i think you wont have a problem , but if you leave 11 seats that are useable then technically youll be driving it ilegally .

its much like driving a coach on a car licence , you must remove the seats so that it can only carry 8 persons max .

ian

[mmgemini]

My Defender 110 station wagon gets a normal test.

Only five seats fitted.

mike

[lrfarmer]

in the eyes of the law you and all who took there driving licence after 1st jan 1997 can NOT drive a car with more than 8 seats without taking the mini bus Category D1 licence

to get over this you will need to take the seats out so there is no more than 8 seats in the 110

then you can dive it with out braking the law

[mike4444244]

I thought a 110 was pretty close to 2000 kg?

Mike

[Orange]

you can drive it but not with more than 8 people in it .

No. This is incorrect. The same principal applies here as does for towing. It's not what you are actually carrying, but what the vehicle could carry.

you are basically saying there are 6 seats in rear plus the 5 seats up in the front .

well you could pull the 6 seats out of the back and then it becomes a 5 seater , or you could fold the middle seats down and then its an 8 seater .

Pull the seats and seat belts out - yes. Folding the seats down does not alter the potential passenger capacity of the vehicle. It is still an 11 seater with or without seats folded.

if you convert the 110 so it has only 8 seats then i think you wont have a problem , but if you leave 11 seats that are useable then technically youll be driving it ilegally .

Correct.

[casey_cole]

I have rung land rover and asked how many the vehicle was intended to carry - they told me that if I removed a seatbelt on each side in the back then it would be completely legal as the 110 in this configuration was only designed to carry driver + 8 passengers.

With this configuration, the landy will be legal to drive on a category B licence.

CC

[alantd]

Yup. You'll have to take the rear bench seats out. Should give you more room anyway.

If you think you'll need to carry 8 of you at some stage then just take out one of the benches.

Replace the other side with a bit of carpet or a nice shiny locker.

Congrats on the 110, though. I think you'll have a hoot.

[Raumer]

We had similar problems with my parents 12 seater series 3. The insurance companies weren't keen on insuring it due to the 12 seats. After a few problems one of the brokers suggested that if we removed the seats so that it could only carry 6 people it was then perfectly legal and acceptable to insure it as a 6 seater. The only problem was that if we wanted to take it to France the french were insisting on a tacho being fitted and would only accept that it wasn't a 12 seater if we got the logbook/registration changed to officially make it a 6 seater.

HTH

Ed

[western]

My 110CSW was a 12 seater, I have run it as a 5 seater for the last 14 years, no probs as I was well past 21 when I bought it & hold a pre '97 licence, also check the VIN plate at the brake servo for the gross weight my 110 is 2950kg as it used to have the levelled suspension & has always had a class4 test.

I thought that to drive a 110 with over 9 seats the driver had to be 21 or over.

from DVLA / direct.gov.uk website

Cars with and without trailers

Description see below

Category B

Minimum age 17* [*Age 16 if you are currently getting Disability Living Allowance at the higher rate (mobility component]

Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle

As cars, but with automatic transmission

B

17*

Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category

B & B+E

17

Minibuses with or without trailers

Description

Category D1 & D1+E

Minimum age 21

Vehicles with between nine and sixteen passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg

Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory D1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg, provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg, and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle

more here

[Madcowz]

We had similar problems with my parents 12 seater series 3. The insurance companies weren't keen on insuring it due to the 12 seats. After a few problems one of the brokers suggested that if we removed the seats so that it could only carry 6 people it was then perfectly legal and acceptable to insure it as a 6 seater. The only problem was that if we wanted to take it to France the french were insisting on a tacho being fitted and would only accept that it wasn't a 12 seater if we got the logbook/registration changed to officially make it a 6 seater.

HTH

Ed

Ah the old putting down the phone when you mention it has 11-12 seats.

I phoned every Land Rover insurance 'specialist' in the back of the magazines and everyone was fine until I mentioned it had 11 seats. Some of these so called specialists couldn't even understand why it had a 200tdi replacing the original petrol engine.

I finally went to the NFU and they were brilliant.

[pat_pending]

Quoting what someone at Land Rover told you over the phone will not stand up in a court of law.

Removing seat belts does not alter the seating capacity, you have to remove the seats as well. My 110 came from the factory as a twelve seater with no belts on any of the rear seats.

9 to 16 passenger seats=minibus=D1 licence minimum age=21

If you drive this vehicle as it is, you will be unlicensed and uninsured.

Not all insurance companies will accept seat removal either, if it was once a 12 seater that's what they still regard it as.

[LandyManLuke]

Seatbelts have very little to do with it, as already mentioned, as they are not legally required for sideways facing seats anyway.

The difference between what's legal, and what's insurable, varies considerably both ways.

[casey_cole]

I disagree:

The rear seats were designed to take 2 people each. Land Rover designed the car to carry 9 people in total and it is registered as such.

If the car is designed to carry 9, registered to carry 9, is fitted with 9 seatbelts and has 9 people in it then I see no reason for me not to be able to drive it using a cat B licence.

Personally, I am happy with my decision.

CC

[pat_pending]

Disagree all you like, the fact is the rear side facing seats were designed to take THREE, that's why they have three seat belts as you pointed out in your first post. Land Rover designed the vehicle to take twelve people. Unless you physically alter the seating you are breaking the law by driving it, sorry if you don't like the answer but it's tough. You may be happy with your decision but the law isn't and neither will anyone you may be involved in an accident with when you're found to be unlicensed and uninsured.

You could replace the inward facing seats with the shorter ones from a 90 or 88 s/w, those ARE designed for 2, and with no centre front seat that would give you 8 passenger seats and keep you within the law.

And if you're so confident, why ask the question on here in the first place?

[LandyManLuke]

^ That's pretty much what i was thinking, well said!

[casey_cole]

I asked the question as I wondered if anyone would have a definite answer - which they didn't - so I rang Land Rover.

I contacted Land Rover and they told me that the rear seats were designed to take 2 people. No offence, but I'm happier taking their advice than yours.

The seatbelts were retrofitted by the last owner (a school).

I understand your viewpoints guys, but I have been told by the original vehicle manufacturer that the vehicle is designed to carry a driver and 8 passengers which meets the licence requirements. I hope you can understand that I want to drive this car legally, so I have taken the necessary steps to ensure that I can. That is, in my view, preferable to acting on the advice of someone who's experience in the matter is unknown to me.

CC

[western]

with 3 seats up front 3 in the 2nd row & four in the side facing bench seats that makes 10 so you'll still be over the top by 1 seat, or remove the side facing bench seats &/or the front centre seat [fit a cubbybox in it's place] & then you'll be down to 5 seats & OK.

it would be very difficult to get 3 persons on the shorter 2 man bench seats, it's hard enough seating 3 on the longer 3 man version.

is there any mention of total number of seats on the V5 reg document, if not if you remove seats that's OK too. as I mentioned earlier my 110 was built with 12 seats & has been a 5 seater or the last 14 years, no mention of total seats on my V5 either.

[pat_pending]

OK, so if the inward seats were designed to take 2 people, how did Land Rover achieve a TWELVE seater? There are as i said, shorter seats that are only for 2, but they are not the seats that the vehicle would have come with originally. Who did you speak to at Land Rover, what was their technical qualification, how did they arrive at their decision without seeing the vehicle and are they prepared to put it in writing?

You want a definitive answer? well as a Land Rover trained technician and MOT tester with 30 years experience i would consider your vehicle, as you have described it, to have 10 passenger seats regardless of how many seat belts were fitted. Definitive enough?

I don't mean to sound nasty, but we're trying to help. There are enough uninsured drivers on the road already.

Replacement seats that would, without doubt satisfy the law are not expensive, or just remove one of your existing ones.

Is it not better to be sure now than have to argue about it in court later if the worst should happen?

[Guest otchie1]

You got me so worried that I just went out into the cold, cold night to check the log book of the 110.

In the bit where it says 'Number of Seats' there is nothing. LOL

Then I remember that I'm long past 21 so it doesn't matter.

Then I remembered that I have lots of letters on my licence,

A

B

BE

B1

C1

C1E

D1

D1E

F

K

N

P

Yeah, it pays to be slightly older

[casey_cole]

How do you get a value of 10 seats? 2 in the front, 3 in the middle + an even number in the back gives either 9 or 11 - not 10.

I don't know what the qualifications of the representative I spoke to are, nor the information they used to come to their decision - and it would be worth ringing again and confirming their conclusion.

I know that you're trying to help Pat. I will contact Land Rover (at a more technical level) again to confirm - if they still say the vehicle is designed for 9, then I will leave it there and go on as I intended. If they say it's actually designed for 11, then I will of course go about removing or replacing seats in the vehicle to end up with 9.

Thanks,

CC

[harle]

How do you get a value of 10 seats? 2 in the front, 3 in the middle + an even number in the back gives either 9 or 11 - not 10.

I don't know what the qualifications of the representative I spoke to are, nor the information they used to come to their decision - and it would be worth ringing again and confirming their conclusion.

I know that you're trying to help Pat. I will contact Land Rover (at a more technical level) again to confirm - if they still say the vehicle is designed for 9, then I will leave it there and go on as I intended. If they say it's actually designed for 11, then I will of course go about removing or replacing seats in the vehicle to end up with 9.

Thanks,

CC

There would have been a seat in the middle in the front. That middle seat is the most useless thing ever conceived tbh, probably why its been removed. It couldn't even fit a 3 year old. I did read somewhere a while ago that my 1991 110CSW was a 12 seater, the implication being that the bench seats seated 3. Your contact at land rover may be referring to the newer defenders, where it would be 2 per row, but more like a seat than a bench. With insurance companies its best to over compensate, if you make a claim and there is absolutely anything inaccurate with regards to the details in your insurance, you will be taken right up the arse mate! Personally id remove those bench seats, then you've got 5 seats, cheaper for insurance, more room in the back. That would be spot on for you guys, great for camping, expeditions etc. 10 lads in a landy might raise a few eyebrows, not to mention the smell

Have you checked out adrian flux insurance btw?

[pat_pending]

How do you get a value of 10 seats? 2 in the front, 3 in the middle + an even number in the back gives either 9 or 11 - not 10.

I don't know what the qualifications of the representative I spoke to are, nor the information they used to come to their decision - and it would be worth ringing again and confirming their conclusion.

I know that you're trying to help Pat. I will contact Land Rover (at a more technical level) again to confirm - if they still say the vehicle is designed for 9, then I will leave it there and go on as I intended. If they say it's actually designed for 11, then I will of course go about removing or replacing seats in the vehicle to end up with 9.

Thanks,

CC

I did say 10 PASSENGER seats. 3 each side at the back=6. 3 in the 2nd row, 1 in the front, 6+3+1, that makes 10 by my maths.

Your vehicle would have left the factory with 12 seats, 11+the driver. That's the maximum design capacity.

As harle said, it would originally have had one in the centre at the front. This has obviously been removed already, as you stated in your original post there was one passenger seat in addition to the drivers seat in the front.

The law states..9 to 16 PASSENGER seats= minibus=D1 and over 21.

When logging an MOT i am required to fill in a box that asks "no' of seats excluding the driver" though this does not appear on your certificate. So in the case of your vehicle i would enter 10. This is then recorded at VOSA.

Also as harle states, later vehicles did have a different no' of seats by design. But these have a totally different seating arrangement.

It wont matter who you speak to at Land Rover, their opinion is worthless unless they have actually seen the vehicle and are prepared to put it in writing. Even then it only states what's there at the time they examined it as it's possible to make subsequent alterations.

If you ask enough people, I'm sure someone will tell you what you want to hear, but...

In the event of a mishap your vehicle will be examined by a nice gentleman from VOSA, who will I'm sure confirm what everyone has told you already, you have 10 passenger seats. His word is the only one that will count in court. As the vehicle can be altered after leaving the factory, even the original build record wont count, and the type approval will only state the MAXIMUM no' of seats that may be fitted.

If you drive this vehicle as it is, you are unlicenced and uninsured.

Having had my bike written off and been hospitalised by an uninsured driver I'm afraid it's a bit of a sore point with me.