nickr Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Having spent many years on my 90 rebuild I'm nearing completion, but am currently extremely worried!!! Rebuild has been done on a new galvanised chassis from one of the two main suppliers. Wont say which as I'm not suggesting a problem with the chassis - yet!! Both axles (apparent from the tyres) appear to be off centre and towards the passenger side. Rear does'nt seem to be too bad and might be attributable to something minor but the front is clearly worse. I haven't been able to make any specific measurements yet but as an example, where the radius arm follows the chassis rail, there is a gap of just under 2cm between radius arm and anti-role bar mount (a.r. bar not fitted) on the drivers side but over 4cm on the passengers. This exagerated by the time it get to the line of the axle. I would guestimate the axle is off centre by about 5-6cms!!!! Springs fitted are the originals , as being new to landrovers when starting the build wanted a standard spec vehicle running before i made any mods. Any suggestions on how I start to diagnose what is going on. Would disconnecting the panhard rod be a good start to see if this is forcing things over. I guess jacking up by the chassis so there is no weight on the suspension might reveal something as well. I dont think I can bear the thought of entertaining an inaccuracy in the chassis!!!! Any help greatfully received!!! Thanks Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I thought all coilers the front axle sat an inch off by design? Certainly all RR & Discos do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsgetdirty Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 If the chassis mount were out for the axle wouldnt there be a problem with fitting the suspension on one side as the shock goes into the hub on the axle and so does the lower spring etc. So the wheel say drivers side would stick out furtur and the passenger wheel would be intowards the chassis etc Im not sure but just a thought. Tris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Both of mine on my 90 are toward the passenger side, noticeably so although I haven't measured it. This was also the case when we built my hybrid some 13 years ago or so. HTH Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted July 12, 2008 Author Share Posted July 12, 2008 Ok ... I've checked rear axle and that is fine. Straight-edge across sidewalls of the tyres shows them to be exactly flush with eyebrows. - The vehicle is fitted with 265/75 BFGs on modualrs so they come out pretty much as far as is legal. On the fronts however its more than I thought would be intended as part of design. Straight edge on driver wheel is just recessed back under arch by about 0.25"... but the passengers wheel is 2" out past the eyebrow. Well more than I think you could justify road legal. I just can see this being normal. Regards Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitform Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 The position of the front axle in relation to the chassis is determined by the panhard rod. The position of the body with respect to the chassis is determined by the bulkhead. I've just nipped outside to have a look at mine ('93 Defender SWB). My rear axle is biased to the passenger side as it sits according to eyebrow/tyre alignment. My front axle looks central. As to the anti roll bar, I don't have one, never had, not got the fittings to fit one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Remember (on the front) depending on what engine and how long your springs are, the axle will get pushed out to one side because the panhard rod connects it to the chassis "across" the front, so if you put longer springs on, the chassis will be moved higher up away from the axle, but will get pulled across by the panhard rod which doesn't stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thanks for all the comments chaps. Re Diesel Jims' comments. I'm current using the original springs that have done 120K miles. Engine is also original 2.5na 12j. Only thing non standard is an X9 winch and winch bumper which is adding a bit of weight.. but problem doesnt seem to get any worse with another 15 stone!! standing on the front bumper. Whilst I have'nt set tracking correctly yet, I've used Ralphs suggestion (in another thread) of using string around vehicle to check tracking, and this would seem to confirm that axle is over a bit further than it should be. Truth of the mater is that my working conditions are not ideal at the mo because I cant work or a good flat hardstanding, and whilst I'm not on the side of a slope the uneven ground probably isnt helping diagnose the problem. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Nick, would you like me to pop over after work tomorrow, might be able to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 Ralph, Certainly would be glad of your opinion if its not to much trouble. I'll send you a PM Thanks Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 no trouble, be good to meet you at last, PM replied to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted August 14, 2008 Author Share Posted August 14, 2008 Just thought I would raise this thread to the top of the pile again as I would be grateful of any further discussion on this one - its a cloud hanging over me at the mo - and not just because of the weather!!! Ralph visited and I told him I was hoping to have the vehicle ready for mot in about 2 weeks!!! - that was a month ago and I havent managed to do any work on the vehicle because of work and the rubbish weather. Anyway back to the problem. When Ralph visited we couldn't see anything immediately wrong, but Ralph can confirm the front axle does seem to be unusually off centre. We checked his vehicle as a mater of interest but whilst there was a slight indication of the axle being off centre, nothing to the extend of mine. I've been dabbling further this evening and would like to pick up on something FridgeFreezer mentioned earlier in the thread - that he thought all coilers front axles are off centre. Did he mean that both front and rear are off centre, but only mentioned the front because that was specifc to my original enquiry. Others have also mention it but refered to both axles. My assumption is that it must be both axles. The reason I say this is because surely if they didint the front and rear tyres would not run in the same track, and the string trick for checking tracking would not be possible. Unfortunately if my statement is true this only confirms my problem . If I set steering in straight ahead position and use the string test, the drivers tyre edge comes is about 1" in from the string line. On passenger side tyre it is about 1" out from the string line. The other thing to bear in mind is something I raised at the beginning of the thread that when looking under the vehicle the radius arms appear to be twisting in their front bushes slighlty, but what is really apparent is that they are not running parallel to chassis rails, again pulling to the passenger side. I decided to disconnect the drag link and panhard rod this evening. None of the bolts were under any tension and the axle didn't centre. However if i then gently push the body and chassis over by about an inch the twist in the radius arms goes. It is almost as if I need a panhard rod that is an inch shorter or the wrong one is fitted, but I cant see that this would be possible as I think there is only one part number listed. Looking around I see that it is possible to get adjustable panhard rods, but don't think I ought to be even considering this yet until I know what is causing the problem on a standard vehicle. Any more thoughts on how I can troubleshoot this problem? Thanks Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 my front isn't dead center i was thincking of using on of theses too see if thay fix it http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/NEW_PRODUC...anhard_Rod.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 only 1 panhard rod listed in my 110 parts book -- NRC9729, can't see any reason why yours is different to a 110/130 rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Without re-reading everything: - No, I meant just the front axle because it has the panhard rod, the back axle has the A-frame which doesn't introduce an offset. - Are you sure you've got the right combination of axle case, panhard, and panhard mount? It's not impossible that you have three items that are towards the same end of the Land Rover build tolerance and this has added up to give you a wonky axle. - Have you measured everything as per the "is my chassis straight" measurements you get in the green bible? No point faffing with rods if you've got a wonky car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul stage1v8 Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 could it be a LHD panhard bar mount, not sure if it would even fit, but the offsets are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 could it be a LHD panhard bar mount, not sure if it would even fit, but the offsets are different. There's no LH or RH panhard rod listed in the 110 1987 onwards parts book, only the part number I posted above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted August 16, 2008 Author Share Posted August 16, 2008 Chaps, thanks for all the comments Ralph.. i think paul may be pickiing up and following on fridgefreezers commens about the Panhard rod mount (NTC9462/ NTC9461) rather than the rod itself, and suggesting I might have a LHD one fitted. I have'nt thought this through yet, but dont think that would fit??. In hindsight I wish i had had observed the front axle offset on the vehicle before rebuilting the vehicle on the new chassis. Wish I'd done some dimensional checks on the new chassis as well before the build up - but i've leart a lot since then. ref FridgeFreezers comments: Thanks for directing me to the chassis checks section. I was aware of the general chassis dimensions being listed but had overlooked the bit for checking a b uilt up vehicle. My problem is my working conditions wnot let me do this at the mo - outside on an uneven hardcore surface. Ohh for a decent workshop - especailly with the weather. I do take yyour point though - for piece of mind I may need to arrange to do these checks - although I would hope that a new chassis would be ok. Anyone aware of a new galv chassis being out before. Dont know much about the history of the vehicle before i got it. It was a heavily used farm vehicle - but I've got nothing to suggest that the pandard rod, mount etc are not the originals. Picking up on the general consensus that the front axle only has an offset... and as far as i can see the only thing that causes this is the panhard rod - Chassis and axle mounting are all symetrical. If this is true, I'm not sure I can see how the string method for testing tracking is possible - as all vehicles no matter how bad tolerances in other areas are going to have the 1" offset quoted for the front axle introduced by the panhard rod. Also if there is a genuine offset on the front axle can anyone explain the reason why as I'm not sure I can see why it needs to be there? LRFaarmer, thanks for the link to the paddocks adjustable bar - I wasn't aware of that one. It might come to that- Dont suppose you know specifications ie max min length - I imagine its designed with a lift in mind - which if I'm right will naturaly push the axle to the drivers side. I obviously need to do the opposite. One final thought - I may be worrying about this problem unduly - and specifically as I dont want the typres sticking out past the arches for the first MOT of SVA inspecction if I needed. With regard to suspesion and steering geometry, I've measured the distance between the front and rear axle centre hubs on both sides and they are exactly the same to the millimetre. Therefor am I right is saying that assuming front tracking is accurate - it doesnt actually matter that the front alxe is offset ad the front and rear tyres run in a slightly different track??? Sorry for such a long mesage Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 My problem is my working conditions wnot let me do this at the mo - outside on an uneven hardcore surface. You can have a good go at it on an uneven surface, unless you're parked on a twist-off ramp I'd hope the chassis wouldn't have deformed massively from it's stable state. Yes I've heard of new chassis being slightly out - remember it's a Land Rover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 Did'nt get many replies to my last update - guess it may have been a bit long winded so I'll try to keep this a bit sorter. Further dabbling has revealed that even with the panhard rod and drag links disconnected the axle is sitting off centre to the chassis when at rest - I can obviously move it from side to side. I can't help feeling that this can now only be down to dodgy spring(s) and radius arm bushes. I think I will replace the bushes with OEM compoents for the moment, but can I have some advice on springs. Vehicle has 2.5nad with x9 superwinch and winch bumper on the front. No heavy off-road use planned at the moment. I dont want to go for a lift at this stage, so are the aftermarket springs such as the Britpart yellows ok? Bearing in mind the slightly heavier front end with the winch, should I put heavy duty on the front and leave rears as they are; or keep standard all round. thanks Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 I've not seen it suggested so far, and I would have thought Ralph would have checked too, but have you checked that your wheels all have the same offset? It may just by one odd wheel that is causing it to stick out more? You said you had modulars, and they are available in a couple of different offsets... just a thought Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickr Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 Thanks Mark, yes I'm afraid we checked the wheels. They are ok. A good indication that its the axle / suspention / chassis at fault is that I cant get my fingers in between the front spring and chassis on the drivers side, but on passenger side I can get my whole hand in! rgds Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 i think its related to the panhard rod mountings, you said the panhard rod bolts were under no load, this isnt really normal, on mine when i removed the panhard rod the axle moved over a good few inches in relation to the body (probably because the landrover was parked on a slight slope) from the limited information in this thread i think the chassis is fine, and the issue is that the panhard rod isnt pulling the axle over in line, which i can only imagine is being caused by the panhard rod mounts. Can you compare the panhard rod mounts on yours with another normal 90? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul stage1v8 Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Sorry I didnt get back to post this the other day, the panhard mounts would be offsetting the axle by about 40mm if you had a LHD mount instead of a RHD. Took a pic just in case you needed to check, a RHD panhard bracket on my 110 chassis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 I think PaulStage1V8 might be onto something here. Do you have the cross-bracket that braces the steering box to the bracket he shows? If this fits, it's probably OK. Otherwise I'd look at the position of the panhard bracket on the axle and the centre-to-centre measurement of the panhard rod. I don't think it can be your springs, because it's the panhard that's forcing them to the position you see. Even without springs installed you could jack up the chassis to the same position. I'd be cautious about using bodywork as a reference though - panels bend easily and a small error at the bulkhead could add up etc. Edit: I mean the bracket in the background here, no comments on the damper or amount of TRE thread showing please : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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