Chris Abel Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I would like to find out what the general opinion is for the use of winch sails with synthetic rope? For the Howlin Wolf challenge events we use a thin sail wrapped up on the rope that can be moved along the rope if needed, the majority of the time it’s at the hook end out of the way. The only time it gets moved down the rope is to protect the rope on sharp rocks. At the Tay forest we were not allowed to do this so we used the conventional weighted Velcro sail, we found that the sail would constantly slip down the rope ending up getting dragged through the fairlead, when this happens on a 45 degree slope trying to free it is by no means safe. Keeping the sail in the middle of the rope also requires the Co-driver to constantly reposition the rope under load, how is that safe? Synthetic ropes do store some energy but they are not a threat to the driver, co-driver or spectators unless you have direct contact with the rope. I do however think that sails should still be used with wire rope because the potential kinetic energy stored under tension is far greater as we all know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Nope, Only as a marker if you are crossing a track. Otherwise they are no use and just something else to think about (not getting it wound up in the winch) while you have many more important things to be concentrating on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 we found that the sail would constantly slip down the rope ending up getting dragged through the fairlead, when this happens on a 45 degree slope trying to free it is by no means safe. Keeping the sail in the middle of the rope also requires the Co-driver to constantly reposition the rope under load, how is that safe? Synthetic ropes do store some energy but they are not a threat to the driver, co-driver or spectators unless you have direct contact with the rope. Exactly. If synthetic does hit you it does no more than sting a bit. Far less dangerous than risking loosing a finger untangling a sail caught up in the winch drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVIT Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Exactly. If synthetic does hit you it does no more than sting a bit. Far less dangerous than risking loosing a finger untangling a sail caught up in the winch drum. waste of bloody time. the times I have had to untangle it from the fairlead, although there is things you can do to prevent this happening. Just came back from the forest of ae challenge, no sails were required. We have the gigglepin twin motor with a 12mm plasma. we were well stuck in bog, done a single line pull and ping went the rope, and dropped straight to the floor ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbymogs Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 if using stel yes deffo but synthetic id say no unless you were going over a track or using it to cover rocks or similar Nobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Turner Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 We did not have to use them in Portugal with plasma only needed with steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young bobtail Rhys Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I have had a synthetic rope snap on me and standing quite close as well. It had no sail and when snapped it went straight to the ground, avoiding everyone and IMHO you would have to be standing pretty close to get hit. I don't think they are necessary either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 i think they have their uses when winching across tracks etc as a visual deterrent on synthetic rope. they also help the less clued up spectators see whats going on and i reckon thats about it. interestingly enough its a condition of my event insurance that they added not me! so they must know about them! wire rope yes all the time Interesting that on HW we had to undo our sail and use it as a conventional one, with it not being allowed to be rolled up at the hook end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Turner Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Interesting that on HW we had to undo our sail and use it as a conventional one, with it not being allowed to be rolled up at the hook end! They tried to undo mine, but i was not haveing any of that.......... mine's like that to guard the rope against the rock's. I think the rule has been carried over from the old day's when there was only steel rope's about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ced Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I think we should keep using something on winch ropes. I've seen ropes flying away as bungees. But, I think it's ok to have a rolled winch sail on a cable. BUT, it's dangerous for the co-driver to keep this roll in the middle of this cable during winching. The change to co gets injured when doiing this is quite big !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon red90 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 get rid of them. i also think.... ban steel rope on events and then you'll not need to use blankets, with the exception of wiching across tracks. simple. and before evryone starts on me about the price of plasma etc, dont bother. be honest, what would a winch blanket do to slow down a steel cable that has just snapped and heading toward you. answer: very little. what cost more? synthetic limbs or synthetic rope? this is the 21st century, the sport has evolved and the day of steel cable is behind us. i'm talking about safety, not ease of useage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 get rid of them. i also think....ban steel rope on events and then you'll not need to use blankets, with the exception of wiching across tracks. simple. and before evryone starts on me about the price of plasma etc, dont bother. be honest, what would a winch blanket do to slow down a steel cable that has just snapped and heading toward you. answer: very little. what cost more? synthetic limbs or synthetic rope? this is the 21st century, the sport has evolved and the day of steel cable is behind us. i'm talking about safety, not ease of useage. At the last Bux and District challenge they actually told us in the drivers briefing that it was ok to wrap it on and fix, as we always do, which everyone promptly did,it makes sense cos its always there on the rope and good as a marker on crossing tracks and there when needed for rocks and trees. It usually stays where you put it if cable tied tight and probably still damps the rope when it snaps , if it snaps on the short side of the sail that is. Also rolled up it wont go in the fairlead unless you flick in and not out and then take the hook in as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsr341 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 ive voted ''not needed'' ive been around loads of synthetic rope breakages , stood very close and touching them , there is very minimul recoil in the rope but because of its low weight poses no real threat apart from maybe a bruse completly agree with the other comments , regarding winch blankets beeing swollowed up by fair leads , and the danger of removing them (any one thats done it will know what i mean) i say get rid of them , we spent loads of time repositining sails in tay and putting them back on when the rope comes taught and throws them off . should still be conpulsory on board equiptment mind , for rope protection and the track crossing as mentioned allready Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Keep them on but rolled up to protect the rope on sharp rocks etc, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan kemp Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I do however think that sails should still be used with wire rope because the potential kinetic energy stored under tension is far greater as we all know. Mythbusters tried to cut a pig carcass in half with a wire rope. It was set up to do maximum damage with stupid amounts of strain before the break. It barely marked the pig over several tests. Perhaps anyone using wire rope should get a pig to bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Perhaps anyone using wire rope should get a pig to bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I have been lucky enough to test many ropes for many companies and agree that most fall to the floor or whip back only gently. There is one though that does recoil and that is Masterpull, easily indentified by it's light coloured out sheath and way the handles (Almost like steel) This makes a noise like a pistol shot when snapped and does recoil. However i very much doubt that it could hurt anyone. I think a move to educate people to use blanket and protectors in the right places would be far more benifical than forcing people to use them for the sake of it on Plasma style ropes. I vote NOT NEEDED on the basis of most pulls do not require them. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Mythbusters tried to cut a pig carcass in half with a wire rope. It was set up to do maximum damage with stupid amounts of strain before the break. It barely marked the pig over several tests.Perhaps anyone using wire rope should get a pig to bitch. I remember that episode but they way they ran the experiment didn't marry up with th way that we use ropes. They had the rope breaking and then wrapping around the pig. Where as we would be seeing a whipping action at the end of the rope. Totaly different scenarios. As soon as the rope breaks and starts wrapping it loses inertia at a rapid rate, but when you have the whipping situation the tip will acellerate as tip flips about the linear position. That is when the damage occurs. I also voted against sails. When it states that the sail is to stop the plasma (I know they are not all the same but for ease of explanation I'll call it plasma) the fact that the sail is wrapped tightly at the end of the rope and is almost fixed by the tightness of the wrap then it becomes useless for the purpose that it is intended. As has been said it is only of use that it is for protection of the plasma against rocks/sharp objects. Where I work when we use SWR (steel wire rope) we have a safety zone around the rope in use. That is 1 1/2 times the length of the rope, therefore for use in our sport that safety factor is unachievable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 sails not needed for northern stuff (if you use synthetic/plasma,) personally I dont see the need for them other than as a warning marker out of interest.. if you are forced to use a sail couldnt you just use one of those recoiling dog leads to reposition the sail without actually having to touch it or get too close to a line under load? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffUK Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 The dog lead method is used on some of the Oz event's as a winch blanket is mandatory on most events there. I voted for "not needed" for the same reason most of you have described above. I would also second Si in his request to ban steel cable. In terms of risks in our sport I believe that we have many other things to address first. It was good to see that Andy T made helmets mandatory this year on the Tay and I hope that all competitions will make them mandatory soon. I for myself have decided not to do any competitions without helmet regardless of if they are required or not. Another thing to highlight is the poor scruteneering (or sometimes even a lack of) at events. When looking at other cars I'm often surprised with what is alowed to race: fire extinguisher, first aid kit, four point harness, a roll cage which deserves the name, secured, strapped down batteries, cut off switches are just a few things which come to mind. Imagine you do have an accident at an event like the Tay being at the far end of a section... without any first aid kit on board it would take a long time to get help. Just my 5p worth steff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBE Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I can clearly remember three synthetic ropes breaking near me (seen a few others but not near me and not getting my undivided attention!) two of them fell straight to the floor and one recoiled all the way to the hook about 40ft away from the winch where it broke! The sail, in this case, was at the hook end and did no good at all. It may have done some good if it was in the middle of the rope! But the rope could've broken anywhere along its length! There are so many variables, it is not easy to say if a sail would help or not. Each case is different. I do think Wire rope should be banned in UK comps tho. Some people spend more on comfy seats than they do on a descent synthetic rope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I wholeheartedly agree about kit requirements however a first aid kit is pretty much useless for anything more than a scratch if you dont know how to use it or there isnt a competant monkey within quick reach. Im still not convinced about helmets, a well starched bowler hat is much more dashing - come to think of it a Topper would provide an additional crumple zone and re-introduce doffing when passing other crews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffUK Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Bowler hat and make it a gentlement sport... like the idea. On the first aid kit: When I did my driving license the passing of a first aid course was mandatory. Also on the wish list would be that marshals would be trained in first aid. Many years ago I had my finger caught in the winch (me very stupid) and it was in the middle of nowhere in Wales. I was very glad that my co-driver had first aid knowledge and that we had some sterile stuff with us to stop the bleeding and transport the rest of the fingertip to get it sewed on again in hospital. I know that real men would have just used an oily rag and carry on but I'm just to much of a wimp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 But the rope could've broken anywhere along its length! Interesting you should say that. I have very little experience working with ropes but I have noticed that they almost always break either at the fairlead, usually on an extreme sideways, up or down pull, or in the first few meters of rope where most of the wear and tear occurs. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 on the wish list would be that marshals would be trained in first aid. Finding marshals is hard enough, now you want medics? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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