Working and making mods on your own vehicle

[landroversforever]

The very people who would abide by the legisaltion would not be the people who need to be targeted. It would be the people who would avoid this legisaltion/break the law who would not abide by it.

This is same same for most things isn't it, no matter what is introduced, its the good guys that will be got at. The bad guys will just find another way.

[Turbocharger]

As they said when handguns were banned: "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them".

[Lara]

To be honest, when I think about it hard and long, the laws that we have over here regarding modifications to your vehicle make more sense!

You can mod nothing if it takes it away from standard homologated spec! Even tyre sizes!

But, if you mod well, and keep it looking good, correct, and well done they will pass it. But only because they don't see it. Still "officially an illegal mod though" They do not have the expertese or the time to tell if every mod was or is well done or safe, so could not possibly be asked to do this in our "law suit" modern time.

We have to be responsible for our own actions. THAT is the big problem!

We need to police our selves and start acting more responsibly.

Organisers of events could also think of this one too, instead of insisting that all vehicles be "road legal" and then asking them to drive on the road at high speed between sites, maybe they should avoid the road driving and just use the need for "suspect" road legality as a rough guide for event scrutineering and insurance.

Organisers "say" speeding between stages will be penalised but I have never heard of anyone being penalised and let's face it, would you slow down if you were vying for the lead with only a few points and needed to get to the next site fast? This could easilly be sorted for instance by splitting up a 10 hour day to 3 timed hours on each of the 3 sites, giving pleanty of time for trailering or safe driving! Not that you can guarantee that either after a vehicle has had 3 hours of "hard core" competition!

More trailers for the "extreme" stuff and more accountability for people who want to drive on the road!

Lara

[Turbocharger]

There's two issues here - safe and legal. An SVA'd trayback which has ripped a brake line off in a morning's competition is more dangerous than a brand new showroom truck that's been ringed with a tax-free chassis plate. One's illegal, the other's dangerous.

[leeds]

There's two issues here - safe and legal. An SVA'd trayback which has ripped a brake line off in a morning's competition is more dangerous than a brand new showroom truck that's been ringed with a tax-free chassis plate. One's illegal, the other's dangerous.

Ringed vehicle is illegal full stop.

The SVA with brake line off would surely be illegal on the public highway for having a defective braking system? Which would make it illegal and dangerous also.

A motor vehicle is a potential lethal weapon. The vehicle can be perfectly legal, defective free but driven in the wrong manner can become a lethal weapon.

What society needs is for all vehicles to be safe, legal and to be driven in a responsible manner. Easy to say, not so easy to acheive

Regards

Leeds

[Lara]

In all honesty you can not have a vehicle that has just done a half days Competitive winch challenging AND is still fully street legal, without checking and cleaning it first!

As this doesn't happen then let's get away from the need!!!!

Mainly street driven vehicles are different story, they are governed by rules and let's face it, we all know the rules! it's just that some people decide to flaunt them!

some for differing reasons than others but all the same.

People keep mentioning "go to any off road event and wait outside" rather an irritating comment as their wont be 1 single 100% legal vehicle there, probably even the police car.

When I was 18 and we used to get pulled up every single day in my old Mk2 Cortina, we used to climb under and around the police cars that stopped us and point out all of their faults, got us into trouble but was great fun!!! NO ONE IS 100% FAULT FREE if you look hard enough!

We need to look at this sensibly and avoid worsening the situation.

Split Road and Comp cars and avoid the need to drive a comp car on the road, we don't need them for shopping!

Then the mods can be kept to an acceptable and generally safe level for road vehicles.

There is no need for vehicles that are Extremely modified for competition to be driven on the roads!! (other than being "forced" to by event organisers)

Going a little OT here but I think that this is closely related and relevant.

Lara

[alan kemp]

There is no need for vehicles that are Extremely modified for competition to be driven on the roads!! (other than being "forced" to by event organisers)

Lara

Totally agree with that.........

[dollythelw]

just pondering but...

by doing that you guys would exclude yourselves from international comps that require race vehicles to be classed/vaguely classed as "road legal" in thier country of origin or is it be ok as long as you are breaking the law in another country?

..alternatively just compete in standard vehicle or tourist classes?

why not raise the bar and simply build better engineered cars? ensure that scrutineering knocks back sheds, taking responsibility and ensuring the fabled ripped brake line is looked for before a comp car does a road section (please tell me these drivers notice something as minor as a fubar'd brake system, surely they are not that dumb?)

I guess that following the road car/comp car logic to its most extreme conclusion there is no reason for anyone other than businesses to own a 4x4 at all, how far would you like the media government to go before you make a stand?

[Lara]

just pondering but...

by doing that you guys would exclude yourselves from international comps that require race vehicles to be classed/vaguely classed as "road legal" in thier country of origin or is it be ok as long as you are breaking the law in another country?

..alternatively just compete in standard vehicle or tourist classes?

why not raise the bar and simply build better engineered cars? ensure that scrutineering knocks back sheds, taking responsibility and ensuring the fabled ripped brake line is looked for before a comp car does a road section (please tell me these drivers notice something as minor as a fubar'd brake system, surely they are not that dumb?)

I guess that following the road car/comp car logic to its most extreme conclusion there is no reason for anyone other than businesses to own a 4x4 at all, how far would you like the media government to go before you make a stand?

Not saying that having your vehicle "road legal" is a bad idea, actually it's good. just that if it is a Comp truck there is no reason to "actually" drive it on the road!

This is not just a UK thing! All comp trucks and all events for such vehicles should ask themselves if it is sensible to drive fast on the public highway in vehicles that don't do it well!! and I mean well for a road car, not well for a comp truck! (or on the road at all)

Road based vehicles,

Comp vehicles,

Easy classification.

Why not Global regs?

Lara

P.S.

not that dumb?

Well if you are competing at a site 10 miles down the road from the main gathering / trailer park, brakes fail, pleanty of people would drive back to the trailer / tools etc in that vehicle!

I think that some responsibility lies with the organisers!!

Lara

[Dave W]

Organisers of events could also think of this one too, instead of insisting that all vehicles be "road legal" and then asking them to drive on the road at high speed between sites, maybe they should avoid the road driving and just use the need for "suspect" road legality as a rough guide for event scrutineering and insurance.

Organisers "say" speeding between stages will be penalised but I have never heard of anyone being penalised and let's face it, would you slow down if you were vying for the lead with only a few points and needed to get to the next site fast? This could easilly be sorted for instance by splitting up a 10 hour day to 3 timed hours on each of the 3 sites, giving pleanty of time for trailering or safe driving! Not that you can guarantee that either after a vehicle has had 3 hours of "hard core" competition!

More trailers for the "extreme" stuff and more accountability for people who want to drive on the road!

Lara

Off road motor sport has been running road going vehicles for at least 50 years in the UK and the vast majority of UK events are still suitable for road going vehicles. Keeping vehicles "road legal" is a great leveller and keeps the sport accessible and cheap.

The vehicle in question would never have made it through scrutineering at most organised motor sport events. (technically all events but there are scrutineers and there are scrutineers). Our scrutineers regularly fail vehicles, especially first timers, because their road going transport that went through an MOT last week has serious safety problems. A frighteningly common one being loose drop arms where the nut that's supposed to hold the arm against the tapered splines is loose allowing the arm to move and eventually jump splines. Most failures can be fixed there and then so it's not uncommon for vehicles to leave an event at the end of the day in a safer condition that they arrived in !

Under an MSA permit it would not be allowable to structure the event in such a way that driving between locations on the public road was "against the clock". It is illegal to race on the highway in the UK and if your vehicle has been so badly designed/modiified that it's no longer capable of driving safely on the road between locations then you are in the wrong sport.

As for being penalised for going too fast between sections/punches on an off road event, it doesn't happen often enough IMV. Speeding on an event is cheating and limits need to be enforced or removed otherwise you are penalising those who stick to the limit. I have to confess my team mate once got penalised for speeding on an event, it was either a Bulldog Trophy or a Muddy Truckers, can't remember now which one but it's at least 5 years ago.

[dollythelw]

whats tricky about making a comp truck handle roadwork? Ive never quite understood that - I'm not under the illusion a comp truck is going to handle like a sports car but neither does a 7.5 tonne truck (yet they still drive safely down the highway), 40's and and a leary motor doesnt mean sasuage if you've built a squid on acid thats only capable of 25mph

In my opinion if someones dumb enough to knowingly take to the road with fubar'd brakes rather than than hitch a lift, fix the problem or carry repair gear they qualify as f***tards - I dont get why an organiser should be responsible for an act of wanton stupidity, do people really value plastic cups more than life? wierd...

[Daan]

Totally agree with that.........

I totally disagree with that. In WRC, they drive hundreds of miles in between stages with very heavy modified cars, and you retire if you dont get it to service under its own steam. That is how it should be done IMO. Its more that people cant be bothered with SVA than that people actually have good reasons for not wanting to drive on the road.

Hell, the RFC requires 250 miles on the road, 10 days or a 750 miles hardcore offroad, then 100 miles back to the finish. And breaking down in the jungle means hitching a lift and hopefully go back later with spares to fix it. By contrast, many events in the UK, you see people retire after 1 day of competition and put it back on the trailer. Its a different attitude and you can either demand from the organizers to give in to this or you can force the competitors to act to whatever the rules say.

Daan

[Lara]

Firstly Dave W,

I acknowledge your post and agree with the most, but come on, open your eyes! You don't have to break the speed limit to be "speeding", 60mph on a country road with a Landrover of any sort is stupidity, but not illegal or speeding, My own Landy is VERY fast for a londrover and handles VERY well for a landrover, but not GOOD compared to a normal road car! 60mph round a bend on a country road with muddy tyres etc is just plain stupid, but not illegal ! And it is done time and time again between locations!

I have no gripe with keeping the vehicles to "road legal" spec, just don't ask them to do it during a competition! This is forcing someone to drive a wet, muddy, possibly damaged vehicle on the public highway, with probably muddy feet! and to add to that, even with speed enforcement, most people would drive at or close to the enforceable speed limit, which is asking for trouble!

I have seen accidents on the road on several events, luckily none with injuries, but to kid our selves that it won't happen is foolish!

It does and it usually includes something going wrong with the competition vehicle and / or speed unsuitable for the vehicle in that condition!

I actually don't think this thread is about any particular vehicle BUT it is easy for us to say afterwards that "we" would have failed it at scrutineering! We probably would have if everything that we read in the papers is true, but then we would also have men on Mars! I can not comment on your event but to be honest the level of scrutineering at an event can not possibly be high enough standard to check all vehicles properly, Or we would need another 2 days and a workshop with lifts!

Dolly,

nothing hard at all for normal roadwork, but that just is not the case when driving between "timed" sections, Not the road section timed, but the need to get there fast and give your self more time for the competitive sections. I was not there but would bet heavy (if I was a betting man) that not one comp vehicle driven between the sites on this years Santa's Challenge for instance was driven at standard gentle driving speeds! or was cleaned off before leaving one site and entering the road!

The organiser could stop this! Easily!

Stop the clock between sites!

Steam cleaner before the road, ETC

Costly and not so nice, but probably a good thing!

I can not say truthfully that I am not guilty of some of the above either! can anyone on here?

Lara

[Lara]

I totally disagree with that. In WRC, they drive hundreds of miles in between stages with very heavy modified cars, and you retire if you dont get it to service under its own steam. That is how it should be done IMO. Its more that people cant be bothered with SVA than that people actually have good reasons for not wanting to drive on the road.

Hell, the RFC requires 250 miles on the road, 10 days or a 750 miles hardcore offroad, then 100 miles back to the finish. And breaking down in the jungle means hitching a lift and hopefully go back later with spares to fix it. By contrast, many events in the UK, you see people retire after 1 day of competition and put it back on the trailer. Its a different attitude and you can either demand from the organizers to give in to this or you can force the competitors to act to whatever the rules say.

Daan

In WRC they have a 2 million pound budget and 10 mechanics!

And they usually don't throw them down a cliff face and expect to drive them afterwards!

We are talking Heavy Challenge scene here, Different horse race.

You telling me that the vehicles cobbled together to finish the Rain Forrest Challenge are road legal in England afterwards!

NO!

Lara

[Daan]

In WRC they have a 2 million pound budget and 10 mechanics!

And they usually don't throw them down a cliff face and expect to drive them afterwards!

We are talking Heavy Challenge scene here, Different horse race.

You telling me that the vehicles cobbled together to finish the Rain Forrest Challenge are road legal in England afterwards!

NO!

Lara

No, they have a 20 million yearly budget and they do gravel roads at 100mph+. The mechanics are in serviceparks which they have to reach first. So, therefore the interests are much larger, therefore pressure to be competitive is much harder, but the potential to get it horribly wrong i would say 10 x higher. Still, they manage. Its a different horse race, yes, the drivers are in a much harder situation than we are.

Yes, my vehicle was road legal when I drove home it from the docks.

Lara, stop going round the houses over issues that have been done to death in the past.

Daan

[dollythelw]

Julian, just to put it into perspective Im not being argumentative - merely enjoying the debate

so in that vein...

what you are effectively asking for is regulation to prevent stupidity?

Anyone can drive a road going vehicle (any vehicle from a Ferrari to a Fastrac) down a country lane too fast for the conditions, why dont they? because its dumb and experience has taught them to drive at a speed appropriate to the road (ok there are muppets that just wont learn)... but by intimation you are suggesting that because its a comp its forgivable for competitors to drive like a prat?

How about people taking personal responsibility for thier actions, using comps as an excuse leaves them looking like weeners

Rural Russia would allow you to get away with murder yet we make sure the car is fit to drive as soon as we hit end of a transit or special stage, why? because the roads are scary enough without having to deal with a damaged car

yep its tempting to floor it and not get an overclock but whats the point? its a comp - no ones going to die if Im late, but someone may die if Im that desperate for a plastic cup..

time for a little perspective?

[Lara]

Julian, just to put it into perspective Im not being argumentative - merely enjoying the debate

so in that vein...

what you are effectively asking for is regulation to prevent stupidity?

Anyone can drive a road going vehicle (any vehicle from a Ferrari to a Fastrac) down a country lane too fast for the conditions, why dont they? because its dumb and experience has taught them to drive at a speed appropriate to the road (ok there are muppets that just wont learn)... but by intimation you are suggesting that because its a comp its forgivable for competitors to drive like a prat?

How about people taking personal responsibility for thier actions, using comps as an excuse leaves them looking like weeners

Rural Russia would allow you to get away with murder yet we make sure the car is fit to drive as soon as we hit end of a transit or special stage, why? because the roads are scary enough without having to deal with a damaged car

yep its tempting to floor it and not get an overclock but whats the point? its a comp - no ones going to die if Im late, but someone may die if Im that desperate for a plastic cup..

time for a little perspective?

Jez,

That is exactly what I am saying!

Muppets do drive at unsafe speeds down country lanes all the time in all sorts of motors, But you generally don't see large groups of them.

Go to any event run like Santa's and you will See large groups of them! (sorry to use Santa's but it is a V good example)

Not so fast as a Ferrari but probably more likely to crash!

I am not saying it has never happened but I have never seen anyone check their muddy truck before heading off to the next site during an event, other than "maybe" cleaning their lights. Sorry to say that I am also guilty at this

I know of some competitors who I think would kill their granny in order to win a plastic pot!

Not driving fast would not even enter their heads!

Nor would loosing 10 minutes in order to do a rough safety check even be conceivable for then to imagine without a schizo attack!

This needs to be stopped!!!!!

It is not the total responsibility of the organisers but it would be so easy just to take away the "need" to be on the road OR drive quickly on the road, and make arrangements for cleaning / inspecting.

Actually it IS the responsibility of the organisers to ensure that all vehicles leaving their site should be free of loose mud etc!

That alone would help safety inspection as you look while you clean as a rule ;o)

Lara

[Dave W]

Lara,

I think we kind of agree with each other... but coming at it from different angles On the speeding thing I was thinking more of the 15MPH on site speed limit than the "legal" speed limit.

I agree 100% that if you're going to use road sections as part of an event it shouldn't be timed or give you any competitive advantage to get there quickly. In stage and hill rallies this is done with timing where you are given a fixed time between leaving one stage and getting to the next, arriving early at the next stage is heavily penalised and the timings are based on an average speed of 20MPH. I don't know if you've ever been involved in stage or hill rallies but this method usually leads to a group of vehicles parked up around 100 yards from the start of the next stage having a brew and generally relaxing until their due time when they can drive up to the start without penalty.

Road sections are often an essential part of UK events because we simply don't normally have sites big enough to host 2 or more days of competition on a single site. Where road sections are used the event organisers need to be careful not to give competitors any reason or reward for pushing their vehicles beyond their on road capabilities.

Although I'm competing in MT again this year I also have some involvement in sorting out the permit and regs and it sounds like there will be at least two points during the event where competitors will be driving on the road to get between sites. The MSA will not issue a permit if there is any chance of a competitor arriving early gaining any advantage. You'll be given plenty of time between the clock stopping as you leave one site and starting again at the next. If you leave the first site at, say 11am, you'll be given a start time for the next site which will reflect an average speed of 20MPH (maybe less) to that site, if you get their early you'll have to wait in a holding area until your start time, get there late and that's your choice. I might suggest that they also add, say, a 10 minute holding time/cool off period at the exit of a site where you can use the time to check the vehicle over before heading out onto the road and maybe even put some air back in the tyres Not sure if they'll run to a jetwash but you never know !

[pat_pending]

Our company rally car cost £70k to build....and it wont pass an MOT. Technicalities mind, but still not strictly road legal.

Safer and better maintained than any road car though.

In an ideal world the SVA, or something like it, should be there to scrutinise competition or heavily modified vehicles before they go onto the road. Sort of like a secondary MOT, mods logged and valid for say 3 years. Then present your SVA cert at MOT time so the mods can be checked, maybe certain items exempted from MOT regs due to the nature of use of the vehicle, possibly limited annual mileage. Radical differences from SVA declared mods would require new SVA.

Have a different SVA for standard rebuilt cars or kit cars.

That might work, will never happen though, as neither the gov't nor VOSA would have the intelligence to run it.

And....no matter how good it was for all of us, people would still try to avoid it.

Sticking your head in the sand and saying nothing will change wont do any good, because legislation will come.

[dollythelw]

I know of some competitors who I think would kill their granny in order to win a plastic pot!

Not driving fast would not even enter their heads!

Nor would loosing 10 minutes in order to do a rough safety check even be conceivable for then to imagine without a schizo attack!

This needs to be stopped!!!!!

theres an easy way of sorting that...

take them to a morgue for a tour - see how important that bit of plastic becomes then

when we race the cars are fitted with sat-trackers at scrutineering, now I know its only the backward Russians and not really as advanced as the West but for certain sections there are speed limits - exceed them and get pinged and penalised, deviate from course or tell porkies about where you've been and you're busted, not sure if they would work here but they certainly work there.

[Lara]

Three absolutely spot on posts!!!!!

Who am I going to argue with now. you inconsiderate lot

Statylite trackers! I like the sound of that

Lara

[headhunter]

Last year in the Fastnet race all the competing yachts had trackers, the location of which could be viewed by online.

Three hours after the start I was quite surprised to note one had reached London.

Not bad for a yacht from Cowes. The owner must have withdrawn and gone home, given the weather!

I found it a really helpful method of keeping up with where my son was (crew on a yacht) and was able to track other yachts in their class and text him their relative positions.

If anyone made a tactical move and were getting ahead, I could let him know within about 20 minutes.

Probably not what the organizers had in mind

John

[Dave W]

Anyone know a source of 40 resilient GPS trackers that we can borrow for a weekend in March, suitable for attachment to an assortment of off road sheds ?

[Mark90]

Anyone know a source of 40 resilient GPS trackers that we can borrow for a weekend in March, suitable for attachment to an assortment of off road sheds ?

Do you speak (or read even) french........ http://www.iritrack.com/

Speaking of the French they have another view on the road legal argument. As I understand it the cars in their Tout Terrain championship wouldn't stand a chance of being road legal in france but their event insurance covers all entrants during the event, that's while on stages and transit sections both of which can use roads.

[Lara]

Anyone know a source of 40 resilient GPS trackers that we can borrow for a weekend in March, suitable for attachment to an assortment of off road sheds ?

Sounds like a prospective sponsorship opportunity!!!

Lara