Boothy Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Why or what is the stigma attached to pure hydrosteer, and why is deemed to be so advantagous? Just read the Midland off road reg's and again "no pure hydrosteer", so whats the big advantage with being able to steer?, or is just the case of another organiser who cannot move with the times. Don't take it to heart MOR your just the one I saw today, I've been asking myself this question for some time now. I can understand Rear steer and/or Portals offer an avantage but not hydrosteer, was the same sort of stigma attached to servo assisted brakes or intermittant wipers when thay were introduced? Or is a case of we haven't got it on ours so you can't play? Maybe the reason is failure or lack of understanding, but surely the very fact it will turn cannot be seen as an avantage but surely a neccessity and most of the systems I have seen are stronger than the standard bendy rods type so safety surely cannot be penalised because if thats the case why not penalise and ban roll cages? If its the reason what happens if a hose fails, well I haven't seen one go yet but seen plenty of standard steering rods and track rod ends fail. So come organisers tell us your reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Well it's not road legal so that might be one reason. (except for agri vehicles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 A lot of clubs and events require competeing vehicles to be road legal with MOT, tax and insurance. I know lot of JST's event require driving on public roads between sites so this is a must. As Landmannnn said pure hydrosteer is not legal on the road except for excluded vehicles which includes agricultural and some construction vehicles. Even clubs that don't require vehicles to be road legal may use the fact that it is deemed not legal / safe on the road as a reason for not allowing it at events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 So if my truck when finished (It will have full hydro and rear steer)goes for and passes a inspection and is deemed to be road legal as a aggricultural type truck then why would this not pass any scrutineering, Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 Come on play the game and not let's get in to a SVA/legality debate. I find it hard to believe that hydrosteer (in the eyes of organisers) being not stricktly road legal is a valid reason to prohibit entry, but its OK to drive on the highway with beadlocks (totally illegal, modified wheels), tyres down to 5psi, waffleboards, ground anchors and other dangerous parts strung all over the motor, (send a photo of your vehicle mid comp to your insurance company and ask them how they feel), let alone dirty lights, indicators, glass and damage, besides bent steering, bent panels etc, so I am not buying into that one, legality falls directly with the owner/driver. I not even going down the legality road but I have a full current MOT, tax and insurance, but saying that I do not drive mine on the road, for my own reasons of it handles like a pig. Why, a winch bumper is not original and is classed as modification and could be deemed as dangerous parts especially to a pedestrian, could/should that be outlawed to perhaps? The MOR website clearly states that vehicles will not be expected to drive on any public land or highway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jil6939 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Could it be a way of limiting tyre size as the two do kind of go together? I really must change that picture some time soon!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nick Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Maybe it's because of the fare play issue too ! A hydro steer truck has an advantage in steering out of ruts, holes and so on and on and on. They do go places that your every day comp truck just cant compete with the likes of. Your in a class of your own in these big trucks and many competitor and organizer see's the problem of punch sections being mashed up and the other competitors not having a hope in hell getting through the stages after some hydro trucks have been in them. I think the big portal hydro trucks with their 44inch + tyres should have there own comps and stay away from the every day comp truck scene. Just my oppinion. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Maybe it's because of the fare play issue too ! A hydro steer truck has an advantage in steering out of ruts, holes and so on and on and on. They do go places that your every day comp truck just cant compete with the likes of. Your in a class of your own in these big trucks and many competitor and organizer see's the problem of punch sections being mashed up and the other competitors not having a hope in hell getting through the stages after some hydro trucks have been in them. I think the big portal hydro trucks with their 44inch + tyres should have there own comps and stay away from the every day comp truck scene. Just my oppinion. Nick One that is shared by many... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Just out of interest, how many cars in the UK scene are actually running '44+ tyres'??? 2? Maybe 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Maybe it's because of the fare play issue too ! A hydro steer truck has an advantage in steering out of ruts, holes and so on and on and on. They do go places that your every day comp truck just cant compete with the likes of. Your in a class of your own in these big trucks and many competitor and organizer see's the problem of punch sections being mashed up and the other competitors not having a hope in hell getting through the stages after some hydro trucks have been in them. I think the big portal hydro trucks with their 44inch + tyres should have there own comps and stay away from the every day comp truck scene. Just my oppinion. Nick This maybe so but big rubber trucks with portals, rear steer hydro steer etc are a minority at moment but with how fast the scene has changed over last few years this is going to change and more of this type of truck will be appering so maybe event organisers need to accomadate, HW seems to do fine with them, Just my oppinion, Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Yes everything moves on and like you say more innovative trucks will appear however the majority cannot afford to keep up/compete with them. I think you have to draw a line so that you encourage new blood into the sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Yes everything moves on and like you say more innovative trucks will appear however the majority cannot afford to keep up/compete with them. I think you have to draw a line so that you encourage new blood into the sport Class structures are there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I totaly agree with geting new peole into the sport but i thought clubman type events are designed for newcomers, very few throw themselves in at top end challenge events, Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Just to throw a spanner in works how would this work, If i was to take a unimog 404 and get some weight of it to under whatever limit is and enter in standard class how would this be deemed? portals, lockers etc, Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 very few throw themselves in at top end challenge events, Carl. Ask yourselves why that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 clubman type events are designed for newcomers Which are full of non-clubman cars......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Which are full of non-clubman cars......... So as simon points out class system or like challenger do a handicap system level things up, Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 There is a place for both types of vehicle, the problem is that it is difficult for them to both compete at the same time on the same event. Classes are fine for final results but after several vehicles with a lot of power and big tyres have been through they will have dug a set of and ruts and churned the ground up so any more standard vehicle, particularly one that has had to be driven to the event and then needs to be able to drive home will just not a have hope of getting through. A punch they may have got at the beginning of the day will be out of the question by the end. Various clubs and events pitch themselves at various levels form daily driver challenges which are basically non damaging and can be driven with a normal 90 on BFG with a winch to events more extreme like the Howling Wolf. Many people will start at the bottom and work up as time, interest and money dictates. If you want to build a more extreme vehicle it means you will need to find events that cater for that specification. If a club decide they will restrict the level of the vehicles thats up to them, they are probable trying to level things off so a big budget (or to be fair a lot of fabricating skill) doesn't mean you will walk away with all the prizes with out trying to hard. I expect if enough people want to be able to enter more extreme vehicles be it tyre sizes, weight??, rear steer or hydrosteer, events will be run for them. This seems to be the case with more higher spec vehicles coming along, the vehicles D&G bought to show at Billing were something else. Anyone ever tried to enter an event with a forestry skidder, that would be something to see, may have a problem with narrow gaps though!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Webster Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 This is turning into a really interesting debate, although a little bit beyond the original topic. Its also one that I have strong views on, but very few answers. In my opinion one of the reasons that the 'challenge' scene has grown so quickly and strongly is because it has been broadly based around standard cars and some bolt on bits. Buy a 90, fit some winches to it and some chunky rubber and away you go instant challenge truck. Until recently if you added a couple of lockers to that mix you could be winning events. Now the top level of the sport is very specialised and with a few notable exceptions very expensive. There are lessons to be learnt here from the comp safari/hillrally scene, which has been comparatively been struggling of late (although not as badly as some have reported!). My view is that this is in part due to the sport becoming viewed as increasingly specialised, the perception becoming that you can't compete without tens of thousands of pounds worth of specialist buggy, which is of course nonsense! Its a difficult conundrum to solve, because we all love the innovation, but we also want to see new blood in the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 In reality this isn't just limited to off-road motorsport. The main reason for having rules is to create a level playing field, this applies equally to grass track racing and formula 1. Of course cost and safety play their part in the rules too. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to think of the spec that a six figure sum could produce for a challenge type vehicle. Great to drive it and win, not so great for those who fancied their chances in their slightly modified 90/disco/SJ. Aren't the morc justified in trying to keep this level playing field so that skill plays the biggest part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88 Nick Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I am a member of the morc and do as many of their challenges as time and cash dictate,by no means are all the motors competing road legal, I think the point of the restrictions are to keep a levelish playing field and not scare of those of us on a tight buget. Im not saying they've got it completly right as im sure they could do with bigger turn out at events to help pay site fee's etc, me I just get fed up having my ass kicked by standard zuk's Its tricky to know where to draw the line though,ALRC anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Mr Nick, a hydrosteer doesn't turn out of ruts any different than a series or a power assisted steering box, hydro is just a method of turning left of right, it doesn't do some magicy thing with traction like a diff lock or similar, in essence its only a method of turning the steering wheels, no more. A bit like the difference from progressing from the steering relays on a series 2/3 to a 90 with power assisted, no magic there, just less effort. Sorry buts that's exactly the stigma I was originally trying to answer. The original reason I fitted hydrostatic steering (by it's proper name) to my 35" Simexe'd (like most of them are nowadays) truck was for ease of effort and less shock and kick-back on the steering wheel, which in turn allowed my son (who granted has grown into a 6ft monster) to also drive it easily, and definately better. Hell its even fitted to little Citroens now, to help little grannies park easier, I presume. I agree wholeheart'dly that 44" tyre'd, portal axled, rear steered, monster trucks should either be competing together or be in a total class of their own (and I love em) and they certainly should not be attempting to enter "Clubman's" type events, which is where most of us started, then some of us got the bug and the welding bottles out and and then created their own "frankenstiens buggy" be it rightly or wrongly in the eyes of the "bolt on only crowd", buts then thats evolution and progress. But nobody has yet answered my original question, why pick on something that makes life safer and easier for the driver, due to it making the operator less likely to suffer a kickback followed by a sore wrist for a day or two, or is that deemed as part of the learning process? I accept big tyres, portals, and rear steer, are advantages and perhaps certain comps should make limitations to entry. We were due a good debate on something, keeps us away from the "X" Factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 twiggy, from my point of view it would be down to a failure aspect there is no mechanical link between the steering wheel and steering components, so if a failure was to occur during mid section or s/s like :- - a bust pipe - seals in orbital valve give way - or total pump failure - bent rod that would leave you without steering, which dependant on situation could comprimise your own personal saftey and others around. Thats how i would see it, however having worked on hydrosteer trucks ( forklifts ) i know for a fact that its a more reliable and safer alternative to steering than the conventional systems, where snapping joints, belts breaking, pumps failing and so on are all so common, isnt that why we now class steering parts as consumables ???? just to add aswel becuase some people might not realise, even with a pump failure you will still have so form of steering on a hydro steer set-up, all be it rather pants and slow, but the wheels will still turn dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyv8 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 :rolleyes:imho boothy, to answer your original question i think if you have hydro steer you will definitely win, possibly without even trying to and obviously be able to levitate ,travel through time and of course my personal favorite walk on water.The other reported advantages seem to be improved sexual prowess and increased wealth after finding numerous pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.i wonder if they,ll make you keep tyre pressures to the recommended manufacturer,s pressure,definitely no run flats,you risk getting burnt at the stake.hth just off now to find out if the world really is flat...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLR100 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 This is a great thread soi thought i would just add my two penny's worth! In what ever kind of motor sport you compete in it will allways evolve just like tecnology, there are some comps that will go with it and others that will try to hold it back, the morc are some of the few that try to hold it back and fairplay to them, the only problem is they could get left behind on the general scene with deminishing entry numbers. As for the hydro steer question, there is not realy that much advantage other than lighter steering for larger tyres so there is no real reason to discriminate against it, it seems strange that organisers pick up sometimes marginal things that make a bit of difference but nothing has ever been raised about winches, it is fairley obvious that someone running with a standard britpart winch stands no chance against someone with a hydro/gigglepin winch so should the type of winch you run put you in a different class or comp? it's interesting reading the opinions about rear steer/portal/44" tyres type trucks, i myself have built a similar spec truck and it is not down to being super rich and in a different league, my truck has cost a lot less than alot of tricked up defenders out there, it is just i have spent my time and cash in differnt areas of the build to allow for the extras which i think make the biggest advantage so why should it be excluded from certain events when the time and thought has been invested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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