alan kemp Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 The advantage with full hydro steer is that is less susceptible to breakages therefore you have more chance of finishing the comp. (with the exception of mine which often breaks) I once asked the question "why no hydro type trucks", basically that organiser wanted standard vehicles to enter which is fair enough. There are enough comps for the stronger trucks out there. My only problem with the clubman type of entry is there are lots of "standard" trucks with Ashcroft everything so they don't break, these are competing with "standard" vehicles at entry level and gaining a definite advantage. No one is banning them, I am not saying they should be banned but where do you draw the line? No one is banning Gigglepin top of the range winches or Saley and other hydraulic winches. Entry level challenges should be for standard vehicles with a level playing field for all. The class system more or less sorts out the other comps. Incidentally, my new truck is being built with full hydro steering with an added steering box for SVA purposes, will that be banned? Personally, I prefer the points system that divided the punch score by the number of vehicles that reach it, this leaves the hard punches for those that can, it takes longer but the points are higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I have a brand new Toyota HiLux, the old Nissan 4.2 Patrol (me tow'er) and my wifes car and all are better suited, more comfortable and cheaper to use on the road. End of. End off?? Just because you are well setup to trailer your car, doesn't mean to say everyone else has. If a newcomer wants to do Challenge, he must spent thousands on a car, with tyres, winches, difflocks, roll cage you name it. To than add a tow vehicle and a trailer on top of that, a lot of people are already flat broke at this stage. I am a bit stubborn here, because in my case, I could buy a towvehicle and probably hire a trailer, but plain cant be asked. For the majority however, it is down to what they can commit to. Daan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyzeus Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 My only problem with the clubman type of entry is there are lots of "standard" trucks with Ashcroft everything so they don't break, these are competing with "standard" vehicles at entry level and gaining a definite advantage. No one is banning them, I am not saying they should be banned but where do you draw the line? No one is banning Gigglepin top of the range winches or Saley and other hydraulic winches. Entry level challenges should be for standard vehicles with a level playing field for all. The class system more or less sorts out the other comps. You should take a close look at the entries in Clubman/novice events, the top level truck's far out weigh the entry level type but without them you couldn't hold an event as the novices dont seem to enter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 You should take a close look at the entries in Clubman/novice events, the top level truck's far out weigh the entry level type but without them you couldn't hold an event as the novices dont seem to enter.... That's kind of where I was leaning towards with my comments. I've been to 'novice' and 'club' events where there are plenty of bolt-on-cars running Ashcroft/ARB/8274/Simex that a more sensible budget starter car will get thrashed by. Yet I could build a 44" tyred, Portaled, tube frame machine for a budget of not much more than a Gigglepin winch. Without specifically detailling what axle internals, winch types and mods, tyre sizes, Hydro steer components a car can use then you'll never properly create a novice/club/budget class. Hence the true novices will stay away because their cars will still not be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 If the regs are sane then why would clubman level need to fit ashcroft bits in their axles, unless they really can't drive of course I'm all for clubman events, everyone's got to start somewhere and the "learning to drive" bit is vastly under-rated from some of the "all the gear, no idea" antics you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Sorry but that's utter rubbish Glasses ??? did you fail to read this ? however having worked on hydrosteer trucks ( forklifts ) i know for a fact that its a more reliable and safer alternative to steering than the conventional systems, where snapping joints, belts breaking, pumps failing and so on are all so common, isnt that why we now class steering parts as consumables ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Interesting topic. Personally I think they've done this from a legal / insurance standpoint as there is a requirement that road legal vehicles enter (either because there are transit sections on road or the insurance requires that vehicles are road legal). By banning purely hydraulic steering you remove any possible arguement on the day. It will also have the effect of disuading the 'top level' teams entering. However, there is no reason why you can't build a system 99% as good as full hydro but complies with the regs if you want to...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Let me just state that i have never entered a challenge event in my 90 - and nor will i, reasons to follow. But i have co-driven on a challenge and i have watched half a dozen as a spectator and marshall, so i do have some reference and experience to draw on in my comments. Aren't the morc justified in trying to keep this level playing field so that skill plays the biggest part too right. Something that seems to be entirely lost on alot of people doing challenge events nowadays is the ability to DRIVE. I have seen far too many competitors approach a section and the co driver just jump straight out and start pulling the winch rope. neither have even bothered to look at the section, decide if it can be driven (and often they can if you follow the right line) or even have a go. Straight to the 'kit', straight into winching, no thought processes, no driver skill, they might as well be driving a 1960's mini with a sledge skid plate underneath and the 1000cc engine powering a large hydraulic centre winch. You should take a close look at the entries in Clubman/novice events, the top level truck's far out weigh the entry level type but without them you couldn't hold an event as the novices dont seem to enter.... I WONT enter a clubman event for this very reason. Why should i basically destroy my fairly standard 90 on 32" muds trying to follow some brainless winch gimp who ploughs the hell out of every section spinning his simex with 300bhp engine whilst winching his way around? Where is the challenge for me? I cant even get down most of the transit tracks between sections by lunchtime! If those big boys toys didnt crowd the clubman events - you WOULD get people with fairly standard motors like me entering. Clubman/novice events are for people in standard motors. But it has been taken over by the 'all the gear - no idea' money brigade who go out and buy all the goodies and use them to make up for the fact they cant drive. I would LOVE to compete against most of these chequebook offroaders on a trials course. You know - a trial where driver skill, picking the line, reading the terrain, correct application of power, knowledge of your vehicles handling/turning/dimensions comes into play. I'll vouch for Boothy in the fact that there is very little advantage at all as has been said by others - if there is little or no real advantage to having hydro, then WHY FIT IT and then moan you cant enter some clubs events? If you want a bit more shove on your steering, fit hydro assist which isnt illegal and complements the existing mechanical linkage system. Many events are run under MSA licenses. MSA insurance and liability means certain rules have to be adhered to. Looking at the blue book it does not say you can do away with the standard system and replace it with a fully hydraulic system. 319. The Steering system must retain it's original location and operation, so basically its asking for type approval from the original manufacturer. I can see why. You seen some of the welding that some trucks have? How does a scrutineer know that the ram, orbital and all the other bits and bobs have been designed to fit together properly as a cohesive system, or the mounting plates are welded properly, or the geometry is right, or the single sheer links on the hubs are sufficient for the loading of the ram and that it could snap and should have been double sheer? too many variables for a scrutineer to know. BUT, if its the normal original system with dan bars etc on it - then the scrutineer KNOWS its fit for purpose and at least moderately safe. rant over with. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If people are going to quote MSA Blue Book regulations then they really should try and do it accurately. Regulation (F)319 relates specifically to Junior Trials Vehicles (ie modified ride-on lawn mowers for age 7+ drivers) There is NO other MSA Technical Regulation which relates to steering mechanical linkages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt BADLRC Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If people are going to quote MSA Blue Book regulations then they really should try and do it accurately. Regulation (F)319 relates specifically to Junior Trials Vehicles (ie modified ride-on lawn mowers for age 7+ drivers) There is NO other MSA Technical Regulation which relates to steering mechanical linkages. Thanks Neil I had just reached for the book, I was hoping you or Mark might be watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 You read into my post wrong Neil, Thats the only statement i could find in the blue book in cross country events that says anything about Steering. And yes i agree that its in the section headed JUNIOR TRIALS VEHICLES. And as i said ! The MSA 2009 Supplementary Regulations dont state anything about hydro steer. It's more of an Event Organizer rule. I also said ! So as i see it there is nothing in the MSA Technical Regulations to prevent full hydro steer systems. Just the same as what your saying too. Ok Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibbon Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yet I could build a 44" tyred, Portaled, tube frame machine for a budget of not much more than a Gigglepin winch. You read my mind Rich cos that's exactly my budget for my next build hydrosteer or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If people are going to quote MSA Blue Book regulations then they really should try and do it accurately. Regulation (F)319 relates specifically to Junior Trials Vehicles (ie modified ride-on lawn mowers for age 7+ drivers) There is NO other MSA Technical Regulation which relates to steering mechanical linkages. Bwhahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Just read the Midland off road reg's and again "no pure hydrosteer", so whats the big advantage with being able to steer?, or is just the case of another organiser who cannot move with the times. So come organisers tell us your reasons. Boothy - i take it then that your view is that organisers dont move with the times and its the 'majority'? reading into your 'another organiser'. If organisers are so behind why not show us all how its done and run some events, i am sure you will find it a walk in the park. i run a class system, it counts for aid to traction where an aid is a winch or an axle locker (full/LSD or other all count as an axle locker) 1 aid = std class 2 aids = std + one 3 or more = modified If i tried to account for all the items you mention in another post you would be there for ages trying to class vehicles. At the end of it i set it up for fun and enjoy seeing you guys go about your business, you enjoy building/preparing your trucks and competing - so rather than slat organisers why not just work together its easier and if you tiddle enough off they wont bother doing events. ( edited to add: i see some clever software has replaced my original choice of words) Please note std = standard class and bears no resemblance to how the specific vehicle is manufactured. it could be called 'starter class' for arguments sake (although i admit not all those in it are starters etc etc.) The point i am trying to make is its called Standard but its not a vehicle manufacturers std. other wise some Toy with 3 diff locks would be able to enter std. Hydro steer is not an aid by my definition as its not a winch or axle locker therefore along with beadlocks, waffles or W.H.Y. it doesnt count. So if my truck when finished (It will have full hydro and rear steer)goes for and passes a inspection and is deemed to be road legal as a agricultural type truck then why would this not pass any scrutineering, Carl. if it was taxed (or exempt cert) with insurance it would pass mine Just to throw a spanner in works how would this work, If i was to take a unimog 404 and get some weight of it to under whatever limit is and enter in standard class how would this be deemed? portals, lockers etc, Carl. for my events portals no difference, 3 lockers = modified as 3 aids to traction. Edited October 13, 2009 by JST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 i read about half of this then my eyes started to hurt!so apolagies if i have echoed what others have written..... is comparing hydro steer to PAS not simmilar to comparing a standard 8274 to a gigglepin? it does have an advantage but so what! if comp trucks diddnt have advantages over eachother then evereyone would be running the same truck and that would be hella boring! IMO if your going to penalise people for running hydro steer over PAS then you have to penalise people who run monster winches! but these are the rules and aslong as they are in force you must obide as for the "super trucks" possibly scaring new comers off......well this happens with evereything! and alot of it is where people who have been in the sport for along time build up there vehicles/ toolbox/ abilities. its not just about deep pockets. so should these veterans of the sport stop doing what they love and becasue its scaring newcomers off?! really this is what is moving the sport along if certan people diddnt think outside the box and build this truck or mod that winch or run those tyres (not going to mention any names....dont want to start an ego trip) what would the "scene" look like now? alot more too this but cant be arsed to type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 JST or may I call you James, The last thing I want to do is to upset or slag off any organisers, the majority I admire for the thankless task they do, I often project manage £ multi-million schemes for the firm I work and know "horses for courses" and let the right team get on with things and try not to interfere unless required or asked to do so. I wouldn't stand a chance at organising an event nor would Ilike to try. Let me start with it was a perfectly innocent question of "why the stigma with hydrosteer"? it was never intended to be a dig, it was a simple question, and all I wanted was a simple answer. If the simple answer was that hydrosteered vehicles usually have huge tyres and all the associated bits attached to highly modded vehicles that we don't want at an entry level event, then that would have sufficed, I was asking what people percieve as the advantage, because I cannot honestly see one to performance. Yes I can see that bigger or wider tyres (if fitted) can be steered easier, I can see that massive amounts of articulation can be achieved with it, due to the lack of prohibitive steering rods, but on my vehicle with 35" Simex'es and standard'ish springs and shocks, then the only advantage is it won't hurt your wrist or finger one day, and soft ars*s can drive it to. By a careful selection of bits and pieces both new and second hand my system cost sub £250, all in and piped, that is not cheque book material plus the time involved to root and scource things, I am a electro mechanical engineer by trade, I can and do love to fiddle and experiment with things, sometimes better, sometimes worse, perhaps if TV got better than it is then that would entertain my active mind better. I would not hesitate to drive it on the road with it if I had to. Its safety or reliabilty does not worry me. I am the first to apprechiate that there must be an entry level for the sport and that must be respected and encouraged for its continued growth and success, but there must also be something to aim for in levels including vehicle technology, wouldn't an awful lot of us fancy a hour or two in the the Mitsimog or one of Bathtubs creations for example, won't make us a better driver and could probably show us up for how bad we are but I'm sure we would love the chance. I am also the first to realise that finding different levels or classes at comps must be hellishly hard and how to class vehicles apart without causing confict must also be very difficult, I take my hat of to you and respect you for it. I also realise that different people have different levels of skills in fixing and modifying things, some are not capable of this and can only just manage "bolt on" bits, or perhaps have to pay huge sums for mods to fitted, we all don't so please don't assume these bits have cost a fortune, sometimes you could not be further from the truth. Some of us me included seem to spend every moment of our spare time fiddleing and fixing things, mostly as cheaply as possible, please don't call us for that, it was our choice, I don't have an endless amount of money and have to pick and choose wisely. I also realise that all the toys don't make a poor driver/team better only skill, judgement and practice can do that, and respect and help newcommers where possible. This is demonstrated actively with the Northern Challenge series and this must be applauded. Daan, I choose to transport my motor to events on my trailer, it is my choice, it was not essential, nor is it mandatory but is suits me, I used to tow my old Sankey with camping gear etc when I was into trialling but again that was my choice, I've bought it so I might as well use it. Hows that guys, has anybody actually changed thier views on hydrosteer? Don't go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I've been reading this topic from the start, but have nothing to add with respect to hydro steering... But rather in reply to the comments about "the big boys scare off the new people"..... i agree with this a little bit, but rather in the opposite sense it gives you something to work towards. I'm yet to enter a HW challenge, but i've spectated at a fair few and seeing trucks like mitsimog, saleys, chris abels etc make you go WOW...i want to be able to drive over that like them So come back to my workshop and modify mine to hopefully make it better from the ideas i've got watching. IF the competitions ONLY had standard(ish) vehicles it definately wouldn't be as interesting and the sport wouldn't progress like it needs to. My 2p Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hows that guys, has anybody actually changed thier views on hydrosteer? No - you can still enter my events, i dont believe their is a stigma with them 'down here' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Reasoned Response from James who for me organises what I deem to be amongst the best challenges I have attended. There is lots to read here and lots of valid opinions. I drive to/from events in a full bodied 90 Hard Top I have saved to buy winches/asdcroft CV's Maxidrive shafts and laterly a Gigglepin winch the development having taken 7years, and No matter what else turns up at any event I am there to enjoy myself, tackle what I feel I can and that's it nowt will turn me off trying Hydrosteer/portals what ever people want and some of it great and good to see. the other option is to have single class events for limited/selected modifications now how interesting would that be There is no stopping progress, lets hope it remains where we can all enter/enjoy ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Have you tried asking the moc why the regs are there, you can email them directly from the website, you might even get them changed if you are perswasive enough. Why or what is the stigma attached to pure hydrosteer, and why is deemed to be so advantagous? Just read the Midland off road reg's and again "no pure hydrosteer", so whats the big advantage with being able to steer?, or is just the case of another organiser who cannot move with the times. Don't take it to heart MOR your just the one I saw today, I've been asking myself this question for some time now. I can understand Rear steer and/or Portals offer an avantage but not hydrosteer, was the same sort of stigma attached to servo assisted brakes or intermittant wipers when thay were introduced? Or is a case of we haven't got it on ours so you can't play? Maybe the reason is failure or lack of understanding, but surely the very fact it will turn cannot be seen as an avantage but surely a neccessity and most of the systems I have seen are stronger than the standard bendy rods type so safety surely cannot be penalised because if thats the case why not penalise and ban roll cages? If its the reason what happens if a hose fails, well I haven't seen one go yet but seen plenty of standard steering rods and track rod ends fail. So come organisers tell us your reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthy boy Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Just had to comment on the AGRICULTURAL VEHICLE REG. This form of registration of vehicle is limited so that the vehicle can ONLY be used on the public road to go between the primary building (farmhouse or whatever) and the land upon which the vehicle is working. The rules actually state a maximum permitted distance. So unless the event is on your own land or very close to your house and you are in the agricultural or forestry business then your vehicle is NOT road legal when you turn up at an event on someone else's land and a decent distance from your house. This is fact and law. Argue all you want but it's the law. You can object and say it's stupid but you will still be breaking the law. And we have gone through SVA and worked with the DFT so this is not based on a chat down the pub. And hydraulic does give you an advantage, you can turn the wheels when with normal PS you would not stand a chance. Plus, if you run lots of articulation without a panhard then it is the only way to eliminate body / roll / bump steer unless you get into complex linkages or axle mounted racks. Tim (Filthy Boy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 .Plus, if you run lots of articulation without a panhard then it is the only way to eliminate body / roll / bump steer unless you get into complex linkages or axle mounted racks. Lost me here on this bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkk2 Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I have seen events where smallest tyred trucks went off first and this solved the issue of the large tyred trucks churning up the ground. On Hydro steering, we have systems fitted to lawnmowers which can still steer if there is fliud loss,or if the engine fails. As some one stated earlier we all love innovation, it really only needs someone to apply themselves to this issue and come up with a system that satisifies the "mechanical link" challenge. If this was resloved and could be demonstrated as suggested earlier, this I believe it would put a lot of the resistance and skeptics of hydro steer to rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 Didn't want to go down SVA route its been done to death for an awfull long time and is extremely boring and best left for the kids or the SVA hobby bobbies nobbs to play with Question for play school, how do contractors use their tractors on other peoples land, JCB's etc work on roads, farmers go to market ? or are they cheating ? Am I right in thinking that the pressure reg is the same with hydrosteer,end of effort with power assisted the pump plus effort of direct steering wheel plus person driving it. Articulation we've commented on as an avantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Just had to comment on the AGRICULTURAL VEHICLE REG. This form of registration of vehicle is limited so that the vehicle can ONLY be used on the public road to go between the primary building (farmhouse or whatever) and the land upon which the vehicle is working. The rules actually state a maximum permitted distance. So unless the event is on your own land or very close to your house and you are in the agricultural or forestry business then your vehicle is NOT road legal when you turn up at an event on someone else's land and a decent distance from your house. Tim (Filthy Boy) Just a question on this, What if my bussines is motorway maintainance then i will be miles from home and on land i dont own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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