tonycan Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hello, my Puma engine flooded during our big typhoon in the Philippines 2 weeks ago. It is at the dealer's service shop and they have tried to start it up but the engine will only make half a turn and stop. According to service manager the Puma ECU is waterproof and should not have ingested any water. They're checking to see if the wiring harnesses are grounded. The car was parked and submerged almost to the roof for about 10 hours. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with a flooded Puma engine and could offer some tips. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogmaner Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hello, my Puma engine flooded during our big typhoon in the Philippines 2 weeks ago. It is at the dealer's service shop and they have tried to start it up but the engine will only make half a turn and stop. According to service manager the Puma ECU is waterproof and should not have ingested any water. They're checking to see if the wiring harnesses are grounded. The car was parked and submerged almost to the roof for about 10 hours. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with a flooded Puma engine and could offer some tips. Thanks! TAKE THE HEATER PLUGS OUT AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY WATER IN THE CYLINDERS . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 No direct experience but I doubt very much if the Puma ECU is 100% waterproof if it was submerged for a lengthy period of time....... Half a turn and stop can be an immobilisation problem and while they might think the engine ECU is waterproof, the 10AS alarm ECU sure as hell isn't so if it was up to the roof inside then that will be fried as its behind the instrument binnacle somewhere. It will need a new alarm ECU and have it programmed to the engine ECU to stand any chance of running again. I also have no idea how waterproof the various sensors will be for that sort of immersion but given that it was designed as a van engine I doubt it is anything special for the ones on top of the engine. You will also need to be absolutely sure there is no water going through the fuel system as I reckon that will F everything up completely on a common rail injection system. Bad luck, I can't imagine losing everything like that but I hope you get it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Thanks. Done already. There was some water that came in from the snorkel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 If it was submerged for 10 hours then they really shouldn't have tried starting it at all, without at least dropping the oil (and muddy water) out of it and replacing it, emptying the cylinders of any water and turning it over by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 No direct experience but I doubt very much if the Puma ECU is 100% waterproof if it was submerged for a lengthy period of time....... Half a turn and stop can be an immobilisation problem and while they might think the engine ECU is waterproof, the 10AS alarm ECU sure as hell isn't so if it was up to the roof inside then that will be fried as its behind the instrument binnacle somewhere. It will need a new alarm ECU and have it programmed to the engine ECU to stand any chance of running again. I also have no idea how waterproof the various sensors will be for that sort of immersion but given that it was designed as a van engine I doubt it is anything special for the ones on top of the engine. You will also need to be absolutely sure there is no water going through the fuel system as I reckon that will F everything up completely on a common rail injection system. Bad luck, I can't imagine losing everything like that but I hope you get it sorted. Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yes, I will check on the other sensors right after the dealer decides that the ECU was compromised. Fortunately (I think), my Puma is not alarm equipped so that leaves that problem out of the equation. They drained the tank to make sure there was no water intrusion. Don't know about the fuel lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 If it was submerged for 10 hours then they really shouldn't have tried starting it at all, without at least dropping the oil (and muddy water) out of it and replacing it, emptying the cylinders of any water and turning it over by hand. Sorry, forgot to mention. they did let the oil drain out overnight and put in new oil and filter the next day. Also, pulled out glow plugs ( or injectors ) not sure which and let the engine crank direct from the battery to expel any water out of the combustion chambers. It's when they start from the ignition that the engine will only half crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hi. Thanks for the reply. Yes, I will check on the other sensors right after the dealer decides that the ECU was compromised. Fortunately (I think), my Puma is not alarm equipped so that leaves that problem out of the equation. They drained the tank to make sure there was no water intrusion. Don't know about the fuel lines. Doesn't matter - the vehicle will still have a 10AS alarm ecu it is just programmed to be dumb and "always say yes" to the engine department when the ignition is on. It probably doesn't say yes when it is full of water so the engine ECU will probably see that as an order to remain immobilised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Doesn't matter - the vehicle will still have a 10AS alarm ecu it is just programmed to be dumb and "always say yes" to the engine department when the ignition is on. It probably doesn't say yes when it is full of water so the engine ECU will probably see that as an order to remain immobilised. Thanks! That's a good tip. It might be the reason why the engine will only half crank. I'll inform the service manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Informed the service manager and he says that if the engine were immobilized it wouldn't crank at all. It turns out that the engine will crank once or twice before refusing to crank anymore. So, I guess the 10AS alarm ecu is not the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Spoke to service manager again, they ran the 10AS alarm ECU thru diagnostics and didn't get a signal. He says it must be broken and I'll need to order one also. Hopefully when the electronics are replaced she'll fire up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Spoke to service manager again, they ran the 10AS alarm ECU thru diagnostics and didn't get a signal. He says it must be broken and I'll need to order one also. Hopefully when the electronics are replaced she'll fire up. surely its them who need to get one not you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 surely its them who need to get one not you Hi Camel, normally that's true and they are giving me a quote and a shipping schedule but it's normally cheaper in Singapore and in-stock so I need to compare prices and go for the better deal. Although, the ocal distributor did mention that they would not be taking advantage of this calamity and would offer replacement parts at a goop price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Informed the service manager and he says that if the engine were immobilized it wouldn't crank at all. It turns out that the engine will crank once or twice before refusing to crank anymore. So, I guess the 10AS alarm ecu is not the culprit. B*llocks. I was fannying around with one in the workshop the other day and if a Puma does not have a valid immobiliser signal, that is exactly what it does! I don't know why - but I think it is because the engine ECU reacts to a start signal to avoid the delay of waiting for the two units to talk to each other every time you start, but then if it doesn't receive a valid immobilisation signal within a certain time from power-up, then it locks everything down. One of the tuning gurus on here may be better to advise on this. From your second post it looks like he has now figured out I was right and he was wrong anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 B*llocks. I was fannying around with one in the workshop the other day and if a Puma does not have a valid immobiliser signal, that is exactly what it does! I don't know why - but I think it is because the engine ECU reacts to a start signal to avoid the delay of waiting for the two units to talk to each other every time you start, but then if it doesn't receive a valid immobilisation signal within a certain time from power-up, then it locks everything down. One of the tuning gurus on here may be better to advise on this. From your second post it looks like he has now figured out I was right and he was wrong anyway Hehe. That's what I figured They might be reading this forum too. The thing is, for starters I'm now supposed to get a 10AS alarm module - 885 British pounds, can't believe that little module costs that much; ABS module 1,660 British pounds and an instrument pack 300 pounds. That's considering the engine ECU is ok, if not, I'll have to get that one too. I was trying to search the web for ECUs but it seems the web offers don't sell ECUs. This flood is going to be expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Is none of this stuff covered by insurance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Won't be covered by car insurance, they all get out on natural disasters like floods/storms etc as 'acts of god' and therefore uninsurable. He may have other insurance (flood insurance?) which will cover it though. For his sake I hope so, could get awful expensive otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 That sounds very expensive to me but I don't know for sure what the alarm ECU costs - I would have said a couple of hundred would be more like it. Second hand from a breakers would be a much cheaper solution - I'd talk to Equicar in the UK - have had stuff from them in the past and so far its all been good. If you are paying for it, it will probably be a quarter of the price of doing it with new. If it was my money I'd get the engine running first and decide if that is OK before spending more money on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 That sounds very expensive to me but I don't know for sure what the alarm ECU costs - I would have said a couple of hundred would be more like it. Second hand from a breakers would be a much cheaper solution - I'd talk to Equicar in the UK - have had stuff from them in the past and so far its all been good. If you are paying for it, it will probably be a quarter of the price of doing it with new. If it was my money I'd get the engine running first and decide if that is OK before spending more money on it. Thanks, I'll check out equicar if they're on the web. You're right. I should get the engine running first before getting deeper into the parts. Patience is a virtue. I just miss them The thing is I'll have to get the AS10 first so the ECU can get the signal to start up I think. The TD5 ECU I'm looking at comes with the AS10 for USD 630 so I'm hoping I can find a supplier in the UK who can give a reasonably priced AS10. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 So, LR build a rugged do anything vehicle. Then put as much electronics on it as possible. And none of it is waterproof, it's not as if it's an off road vehicle or something is it? No wonder LR has no third world sales any more. How to kill a company, go for an over the top niche market, stop making the base product then watch it all go tits up as the market disappears. Should have stuck to leaf springs etc. (me a Luddite?). Hope all goes well though. My extended family lives in the Philippines but they had the floods earlier in the year. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santalars Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I agree that this is a week point which could easily be sorted without spending much money. I think they are not failing under any regular Off Road circumstances. We should keep in mind that a Defender is not a submarine. How are the Toyota drivers doing over there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Sorry but anything standard from the factory up to the roof in water is going to be f**&ed, end of story. Doesn't matter what the badge is. A basic mechanical injection vehicle like a Tdi is just a bit easier to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 ^^Quite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Sorry but anything standard from the factory up to the roof in water is going to be f**&ed, end of story. Doesn't matter what the badge is. A basic mechanical injection vehicle like a Tdi is just a bit easier to fix. I guess I have to agree with this. My Puma has been stuck wading in a river up to the hood for about 15 minutes rescuing a land cruiser and she kept on running without any hitch. I don't blame LR for my woes right now. 12 hours under water is quite unusual. My neighbor had 4 cars submerged including a Disco 3 and year old Range and they are both waiting to be serviced too. Only thing is he was wise enough to get comprehensive insurance with "acts of God" which should take care of his expenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Just as well - if you had to replace all the electronics on a D3 I wouldn't be at all surprised if it would be a writeoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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