AWDC Challenge Events in 2011

[najw]

We are running a Poll on the AWDC forum to ask what mix of events the drivers would like to see next year.

Have your say HERE

[Boothy]

Hats off for asking Neil:)

[JST]

i can't remember my login but 6 HW, 5 to count gets my vote. run like this years with long routes and pairs of punches.

[redrodant]

i can't remember my login but 6 HW, 5 to count gets my vote. run like this years with long routes and pairs of punches.

Im all a poll on when / what events, but don't overlook the MSA regs for 2011. Thay may / will have serious changes to how events look / run. MSA

[najw]

Im all a poll on when / what events, but don't overlook the MSA regs for 2011. Thay may / will have serious changes to how events look / run. MSA

Your point is ?

[simon_s]

Your point is ?

The sky is falling.

[will4x4]

to save reading the 36 page link

does anyone know the exact (changes) that will be in place next year?

[treebloke]

to save reading the 36 page link

does anyone know the exact (changes) that will be in place next year?

Not sure if they are changes or additions but two I know of are

Open cab trucks to have a weld mesh between driver/cab and rear of vehicle, IIRC minimum 10 gauge and 2" mesh.

All roll cages will be tagged/logged and defects noted which will then need to be rectified before the next event.

I wouldn't quote me word for word but the above is not far out.

[redrodant]

to save reading the 36 page link

does anyone know the exact (changes) that will be in place next year?

All winching operations to be marchelled

MSA Speck cages

Rated winches and equilalent winch / recovery equipment

Mesh and goggles if mo screen, or open rear cab.

Traybacks / challenge wings welded to cage a no no.

Spill kits on sections & in trucks.

and a few other little changes.

Straight from mr Ian Davis "MSA Cross country committie" bloke.

[treebloke]

i can't remember my login but 6 HW, 5 to count gets my vote. run like this years with long routes and pairs of punches.

For some reason it will not let me log in but I agree with James.

Just one comment regarding the sections, I like the format, but, if the gates could be numbered it would be a big help in finding the route you would like us to take. At Corwen a few gates/sections were guess work.

[zim]

All winching operations to be marchelled

MSA Speck cages

Rated winches and equilalent winch / recovery equipment

Mesh and goggles if mo screen, or open rear cab.

Traybacks / challenge wings welded to cage a no no.

Spill kits on sections & in trucks.

and a few other little changes.

Straight from mr Ian Davis "MSA Cross country committie" bloke.

What do yo mean by wings not allowed to be welded to cage ? Can you expand further ? Where will you stand with regards to a tubular chassis and cage all in one ?

Who are we best off contacting to run some designs past ?

Cheers

Gordon

[Matt BADLRC]

What do yo mean by wings not allowed to be welded to cage ? Can you expand further ? Where will you stand with regards to a tubular chassis and cage all in one ?

Who are we best off contacting to run some designs past ?

Cheers

Gordon

Gordon

have a look at the proposed changes for youself in motorsports now that will have been sent to all licence holders Summer 2010 issue page 38.

If you want any help Gordon please get in touch I will point you in the right direction.

[redrodant]

Gordon

have a look at the proposed changes for youself in motorsports now that will have been sent to all licence holders Summer 2010 issue page 38.

If you want any help Gordon please get in touch I will point you in the right direction.

Or email MR Ian Davis "Cross country committie man" @ MSA, I did / have been for last 3 months, Regs questions & spacific Answers

[Dave W]

Unless they change the wording then the new cutoff switch rule will exclude all electric winch competitors unless anyone knows of a cutoff switch that's capable of taking the load from 2 or 3 winches simultaneously and has auxiliary contacts. The current AWDC setup of using separate mechanical isolating switches for the winches is no longer allowed, you need to have a single switch that isolates the battery from all circuits and kills the engine at the same time.

[zardos]

Unless they change the wording then the new cutoff switch rule will exclude all electric winch competitors unless anyone knows of a cutoff switch that's capable of taking the load from 2 or 3 winches simultaneously and has auxiliary contacts. The current AWDC setup of using separate mechanical isolating switches for the winches is no longer allowed, you need to have a single switch that isolates the battery from all circuits and kills the engine at the same time.

The battery isolation has been discussed before, I cannot remember what the conclusion was but my take on it was.

The Winch is always isolated from the battery unless the solenoids are energised.

So as long as your solenoids are supplied from the main isolator switch then everything should be OK.

I believe the regs do not say how isolation should be achieved.

So the scrutineer would check this by operating the cut off switch and checking that the engine stops and that various electrical item do not work.

If the winch in/out switches were used then nothing would happen as the solenoid would not be able to go from isolated to making a circuit (as it has no power).

The separate mechanical isolators are for you convenience only (and should probably not be marked with the red spark stickers).

[zardos]

What do yo mean by wings not allowed to be welded to cage ? Can you expand further ? Where will you stand with regards to a tubular chassis and cage all in one ?

Who are we best off contacting to run some designs past ?

Cheers

Gordon

Remember that is only open and soft top vehicle that need a cage, so you could take the view that tubular chassis/cage in one is just a very strong hard top (as long as it has some non soft material covering the top), that does not require a cage.

It is not even recommended to have a cage as it is not a "manufacturers" hard top / truck cab.

[simon_s]

Just an idea chaps, but can we take the MSA debate somewhere else so it doesn't clog up another AWDC thread??! Thanks.

[Dave W]

The battery isolation has been discussed before, I cannot remember what the conclusion was but my take on it was.

The Winch is always isolated from the battery unless the solenoids are energised.

So as long as your solenoids are supplied from the main isolator switch then everything should be OK.

I believe the regs do not say how isolation should be achieved.

So the scrutineer would check this by operating the cut off switch and checking that the engine stops and that various electrical item do not work.

If the winch in/out switches were used then nothing would happen as the solenoid would not be able to go from isolated to making a circuit (as it has no power).

The separate mechanical isolators are for you convenience only (and should probably not be marked with the red spark stickers).

The problem is in the wording though, I agree that the way you put it is the common sense interpretation, however, that's not what it actually says in the new regulation though. It says "must be fitted with a circuit breaker that isolates the battery from all electrical circuits" that's a fair way from saying you are allowed to maintain the winch circuits provided the power to the controls is cut. Bear in mind that the AWDC rules require additional mechanical isolators as the winch solenoids alone aren't considered to be adequate for battery isolation, how can they then be considered adequate in this case ?

Remember that is only open and soft top vehicle that need a cage, so you could take the view that tubular chassis/cage in one is just a very strong hard top (as long as it has some non soft material covering the top), that does not require a cage.

It is not even recommended to have a cage as it is not a "manufacturers" hard top / truck cab.

AWDC require an MSA cage though and, as such, it needs to meet all current MSA roll cage requirements or you'll be excluded and that includes the problems with wing bars both with the new materials specifications and that no part of the ROP can extend forward of the front suspension mount.

[zardos]

It says "must be fitted with a circuit breaker that isolates the battery from all electrical circuits"

I've read the exact wording and it's still not a problem. I think your definition of a circuit is not correct.

From a dictionary for an Electrical circuit

The complete path of an electric current, including the generating apparatus, intervening resistors, or capacitors.

A + cable to the high power side of the solenoid does not make a circuit, a circuit is made only when there is a return path through the motor to the earth of the battery.

The lower current side of the solenoid does have to go through the main isolator.

As for the roll cage I would look at the AWDC regs not the MSA page.

"From January 2011 all vehicles competing in All Wheel Drive Club challenge events will be required to have a minimum of a rear roll hoop with backstays and an X reinforcement within the hoop."

"all roll bars and roll cages should be built to MSA specifications ..."

Which is different to the MSA spec and says "should" not "must".

Also part a (iv) of AWDC regs. "All space frame vehicles must have a full cage as part of their overall construction".

(which is in the MSA regs as well)

The MSA (2010) say that the roll cage MUST be welded and integral to the design for space frames.

So any thing not roll cage is part of the space frame and actually must be attached to the roll cage.

So again I don't see a problem.

But note I'm not an MSA scruntineer.

[will4x4]

This is a great thread, if people don't mind can we keep it as i think its all relevant as to how we vote and compete next year...

from reading the above that's quite encouraging it does not seem as scary as i thought the changes were going / could be.

[Mr Nick]

So again I don't see a problem.

But note I'm not an MSA scruntineer.

Maybe you should broaden your horizons Andy

[redrodant]

I've read the exact wording and it's still not a problem. I think your definition of a circuit is not correct.

From a dictionary for an Electrical circuit

The complete path of an electric current, including the generating apparatus, intervening resistors, or capacitors.

A + cable to the high power side of the solenoid does not make a circuit, a circuit is made only when there is a return path through the motor to the earth of the battery.

The lower current side of the solenoid does have to go through the main isolator.

As for the roll cage I would look at the AWDC regs not the MSA page.

"From January 2011 all vehicles competing in All Wheel Drive Club challenge events will be required to have a minimum of a rear roll hoop with backstays and an X reinforcement within the hoop."

"all roll bars and roll cages should be built to MSA specifications ..."

Which is different to the MSA spec and says "should" not "must".

Also part a (iv) of AWDC regs. "All space frame vehicles must have a full cage as part of their overall construction".

(which is in the MSA regs as well)

The MSA (2010) say that the roll cage MUST be welded and integral to the design for space frames.

So any thing not roll cage is part of the space frame and actually must be attached to the roll cage.

So again I don't see a problem.

But note I'm not an MSA scruntineer.

The MSA are the awdc insurers, so the AWDC have to comply with the MSA Regs just like every other MSA Affiliated club.

[Dave W]

I've read the exact wording and it's still not a problem. I think your definition of a circuit is not correct.

From a dictionary for an Electrical circuit

The complete path of an electric current, including the generating apparatus, intervening resistors, or capacitors.

A + cable to the high power side of the solenoid does not make a circuit, a circuit is made only when there is a return path through the motor to the earth of the battery.

The lower current side of the solenoid does have to go through the main isolator.

Good luck with convincing a scrutineer that anything with a switch or relay in it isn't a circuit

The MSA have yet to respond with a definitive answer, I sent a written request for clarification of this in May and have yet to receive a definitive answer. If the people that wrote the regulation don't know what it means we have no chance !

[najw]

All winching operations to be marchelled

MSA Speck cages

Rated winches and equilalent winch / recovery equipment

Mesh and goggles if mo screen, or open rear cab.

Traybacks / challenge wings welded to cage a no no.

Spill kits on sections & in trucks.

and a few other little changes.

Straight from mr Ian Davis "MSA Cross country committie" bloke.

Sorry but I think you need to read the regs a little more closely.

Where does it say MSA Spec cages?

Where does it say all winching operations to be marshalled?

Where does it say no traybacks or challenge wings?

Please quote me sections and paragraphs

[redrodant]

Sorry but I think you need to read the regs a little more closely.

Where does it say MSA Spec cages?

Where does it say all winching operations to be marshalled?

Where does it say no traybacks or challenge wings?

Please quote me sections and paragraphs

I asked direct questions about these regs, trying to clarify them a bit, all questions & answers fron MSA are here.

Questions / answers