V8david Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Right... bo**ocks and more bloody BO**OCKS I've got the newly assembled engine back in the car (3.5 V8). The block was spotlessly clean, both heads skimmed, both heads torqued down as per torque sequence (except for bolts 11-14, they're less than half torque), all with composite gaskets and ARP studs. F**king bullet proof i'd have thought... but no. I primed the oil pump with a drill to make sure oil was safely getting up to the rockers, which it was. Confidently put the engine back in the car. Now there is a slight oil weep down both outsides of the block (OS more than NS). I wiped and left overnight incase it was from the re-assembly but no, it was back this morning. It's definitely coming from between head and block on both sides. Anyone had this? Any ideas? Rubbish gaskets perhaps? The gaskets came as part of a set. Obviously I haven't started the car yet as reassembly has stopped, so it's only got the intake manifold to remove to get the heads off again. If it weeps oil from a quick prime with a drill I dread to think what would happen at a few thousand RPM with the bloody thing running. Anyone recommend really good quality composite head gaskets? Do any come with additional sealing around the oilways? I'd also like the ones with specific sealing around the water ways. Cheers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Partly answered my own question, these look good; http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V8-composite-head-Gaskets-Range-Rover-Discovery-Morgan-Kit-Car-TVR-Marcos-MG-/170921920665?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27cbbd8899 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Given that you're using non-standard head-bolts/studs, dould it be that they have 'bottomed' - run out of thread - because the heads have been skimmed? You wouldn't be the first person who's torqued-down a head on an engine but the 'torque' is actually because the nut/bolt has hit the bottom of the thread; the Ford 'essex' V6 is known for this if you skim the heads/reface the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Use Elring gaskets, if you have skimmed it and used the ARP studs there should be no problem -I have skimmed P38 heads on mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Thanks for the lightning fast replies! No, I don't think there's a bottoming out issue with the threads, the ARP studs seemed a fair bit shorter than the standard bolts I took out. Like the train of thought though. I've heard 'Elring' before, thank you, will look into some of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Update... Got the heads off again today for a look. Both heads and block faces are dead straight, can't get the finest feeler on my feeler gauge under my straight edge on either head or block face at any point. So my only question is why, or rather more importantly how have the head gaskets failed so dramatically without the bloody thing even running? There's one tiny little oilway going up through the heads on each side, at pretty low pressure, and they BOTH leaked, and undid all my F**KING hard work. Anyone got any stockists, or better still links to stockists of aforementioned head gaskets...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I used cheap headgaskets recently on my 3.5 - it leaked water on the drivers side head when cold! Reassembled with Elring gaskets and all good now. I ordered mine from LRdirect as you can pop in the part number and then choose a manufacturer of the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Thanks Quagmire, much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 V8Tuner also hold the gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 V8Tuner and Britcar sell Elring gaskets (just done mine). I'm not a fan of RPI/Partsrange. Who made your (faulty?) gasket set? If oil is weeping BOTH sides, could it in fact be the VALLEY gasket that's leaking and the oil is just "wicking" along the joint making it look like the head gasket is going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 That is a good point, had this before, pushing out the rear of the engine, travelling down the side of the heads, and eventually onto the exhaust manifold :x It has since gone to the scrapyard in the sky, as it well deserved to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Bear in mind the seals and the clamps on composite are different ones to the steel tin gasket ones ! Also add a small amount of sealer (1/2 a pea size) at the corners where the seals join the gaskets before the clamps go on Another vote for Elring, all I will ever use, and a down vote as above for RPI some of their stuff is **** and might make britpart proud their service is also "Something else" Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I'm amazed the gasket didn't seal with ARP studs. They must give near double the pull down force over standard? So the gaskets must be absolutely cronk! I'm not pleased to hear about RPI head gaskets I now hope that if they sealed first time they will stay sealed............. I wonder what their tappits are like ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Thanks for all the replies. The set was from v8tuner, I thought it would be safe from there but obviously not. The head gaskets were composite (which I f**cking paid f**cking extra for) but were not Elring as I assume the name would have been visible on either the packaging or gaskets themselves? The valley gasket was sealed at the ends (really nicely I found when I pulled it all apart). It never came into play anyway as all I did was pump a bit of oil round with my drill until I saw it dripping from the rockers. Then it gently dripped back down the valley and into the sump. The engine never even ran which is why this is so annoying. Anything above the head/block join was also bone dry and spotlessly clean so the oil only came from one place. I could also see that the gasket material was wet with oil before I took it apart again. Also it was definitely from the heads as when I took them off the gaskets were covered in oil. It's like they just didn't seal at all around the oilways. I know what you mean Team Idris, those ARP studs took the heads so tight I thought it would be (almost) totally impossible for any leaks. That's why I couldn't believe it when I saw the oil weep down the sides of the block. Anyway, today I cleaned everything AGAIN for re-assembly. I'll update this when I get the gaskets and re-test with my trusty, fault finding drill. If it weeps oil again, a grenade is DEFINITELY going plum in the middle of the valley... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Stupid question. Where the heads have been skimmed is the final finish? Oil couldn't work down the teeny, tiny grooves left by the, er, machining machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 if you cant feel any ridges etc with a fingernail then it will be fine. My elring gaskets were sealed in polythene on a red coloured cardboard backing, with a little hologram at the bottom. Also had a little sheet enclosed that had the various torques and methods of tightening for the different era's of head bolts. Think they actually had elring marked on the gasket themselves too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 If the heads have been skimmed, check the locating dowels aren't bottoming in their counterbores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Yep, as above, this can happen ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Good idea with the locating dowels, hadn't thought of that. I checked though and I have about 2mm clearance on them, plus gasket thickness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Not just depth, they are tapered a little, so check the bottom of the down, and the top of the hole (widest part). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8david Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Ah, will do. Thanks for the tip. Elring gaskets arriving tomorrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p76rangie Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Just a point you should note is that using composite gaskets on a 3.5 will lower your compression ratio significantly. So if you started will a low compression motor and add composite gaskets the compression ratio will now be down to around 7.0 to 1. You should only use composite gaskets on 10 bolt heads, not 14 bolt heads. Alternatively you need to shave 40 thou off the 14 bolt heads to compensate for the composite gaskets. That is, 10 bolt heads are 40 thou thinner than 14 bolt heads from the factory to compensate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'd question the "significantly", but that argument has been done before. Given the engine is an '89 EFI and so "high compression" I wouldn't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p76rangie Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'd question the "significantly", but that argument has been done before. Given the engine is an '89 EFI and so "high compression" I wouldn't worry about it. How do you know it is a high compression motor? He can tell by looking where the engine number is stamped on the block as the compression ratio is stamped at the top right of the engine number. Even if it is a high compression, the composite gasket will drop the compression ratio to just below a low compression motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Like I said, that argument has been done before. You do not *have* to skim the heads, you do not *have* to use tin gaskets with 14-bolt heads, you *can* use composite gaskets if you want. I've done it, it was fine, no-one died, let's not get all het up about it eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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