mikec Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Hi just wondering if anyone knows the differences in megasquirting a thor compared to the earlier motors? I've googled it till my heads frazzled but can't find any threads of actually doing it just people asking about it? Cheers mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Is it in an existing installation ? Does it have an electronic auto box hooked up to it ? What vehicle is it in ? Do you want to understand how it works and install it yourself or do you want to pay someone else to do it for you ? When I've done it I've always used all the OEM stuff and configured the MegaSquirt accordingly. The OEM crank sensor is a standard VR sensor so can drive the MS directly. The coil packs are easy to drive with standard MS coil drivers. The OEM IAC can be driven by any version of the MS hardware using the standard PWM setup. The only additional hardware you need outside the MS ECU and coil drivers is an air intake temp sender although you can also use the OEM MAF sensor if you want to. If you go down this route though I strongly recommend you build the coil drivers into their own box in the engine bay as it eliminates rogue signals upsetting the MS ECU. I have a good, working, base msq for an OEM Thor V8 if you want to go down that route. If you're happy to get to understand the system yourself with help from the numerous sources of help/information available on the MegaSquirt forums and, to a limited extent, on this forum the I'd definitely urge you to go down the OEM route, if nothing else it will be the cheapest option ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Is it in an existing installation ? Does it have an electronic auto box hooked up to it ? What vehicle is it in ? Do you want to understand how it works and install it yourself or do you want to pay someone else to do it for you ? When I've done it I've always used all the OEM stuff and configured the MegaSquirt accordingly. The OEM crank sensor is a standard VR sensor so can drive the MS directly. The coil packs are easy to drive with standard MS coil drivers. The OEM IAC can be driven by any version of the MS hardware using the standard PWM setup. The only additional hardware you need outside the MS ECU and coil drivers is an air intake temp sender although you can also use the OEM MAF sensor if you want to. If you go down this route though I strongly recommend you build the coil drivers into their own box in the engine bay as it eliminates rogue signals upsetting the MS ECU. I have a good, working, base msq for an OEM Thor V8 if you want to go down that route. If you're happy to get to understand the system yourself with help from the numerous sources of help/information available on the MegaSquirt forums and, to a limited extent, on this forum the I'd definitely urge you to go down the OEM route, if nothing else it will be the cheapest option ! Cheers for the reply, the only issues I've found so far is the fact there's no stat housing and no petrolreturn pipe, but apparently the earlier piping will fit under there. To be honest I'm just throwing ideas about in my head, if it happens it'll be replacing a carb set up, in a 90, manual box. I've got both manifolds, early and late, complete. I'd have to do it all my self to keep costs down but also don't want anything to complicated, if I could reuse some lr parts that'd be great, but the donor was an auto so I'd have to track down a manual box flywheel with cutouts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoSS Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Yeah, i did a Thor v8 MS onto a previously carb'ed 3.5 motor. If you have specific questions let me know, i dont think it was so different from doing it on another type of manifold. p.s The stat is external, you can buy it off the shelf. I had to make up a custom 'T' pipe for the front of the manifold. p.p.s heres a pic http://sdrv.ms/WFAkqA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 You might even be able to pop a normal stat & earlier housing on the front of the inlet manifold - the lower half being the same casting as every other EFi V8 with only minor differences in where there are/aren't holes drilled. You could go to an earlier plenum if you wanted but the Thor one is nicer. Fuel rail can be changed, injectors etc. are no issue, you can use direct-coil-drive with the flywheel sensor or go EDIS and mount a trigger wheel on the front pulley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Cheers for the reply, the only issues I've found so far is the fact there's no stat housing and no petrolreturn pipe, but apparently the earlier piping will fit under there. If you're converting from Manual to Auto you'll probably find it simpler to add a trigger wheel to the crank pulley. You don't need a fuel return pipe, Thor uses an external (to the fuel pipe) regulator so the output of the regulator goes to the fuel rail and the return comes from the regulator. On the LR setup the regulator is part of the in tank fuel pump assembly but aftermarket adjustable regulators are easier to put into a none plastic tank setup. An adjustable regulator also makes it slightly easier to tune as you can prioritise your fuel map and duty cycles, especially if you use the less than accurate MS1 ECU setup without the HiRes code. If you get one with an external vacuum control that can also help with tuning the idle as it lowers the fuel pressure in high vacuum areas of the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 You might even be able to pop a normal stat & earlier housing on the front of the inlet manifold - the lower half being the same casting as every other EFi V8 with only minor differences in where there are/aren't holes drilled. You could go to an earlier plenum if you wanted but the Thor one is nicer. Fuel rail can be changed, injectors etc. are no issue, you can use direct-coil-drive with the flywheel sensor or go EDIS and mount a trigger wheel on the front pulley. I'll have a look at the manifolds tomorrow as I've got a Thor one and a 3.9 one too. especially if you use the less than accurate MS1 ECU setup without the HiRes code. Hi I'm interested too know a bit more about what you mean by this? Cheers mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 The main limitation of the MS1 generation of ECUs with the standard MS1-Extra code is the lack of resolution, especially when it comes to setting the fuelling up at low RPM. Essentially it comes down to how finely you can (or can't) control the opening time of the injectors and hence the accuracy of the fuelling. The amount of fuel injected is down to a combination of three things - the size of the injector, the pressure in the fuel line and the time that the injector is open for. The last one is adjusted by the MS ECU but with the MS1 ECU it can only adjust the timing in steps of 100 microseconds. By comparison the MS2 ECU can control the injection time in steps of 0.67 microseconds. The MS2 also has a bigger map table with 16x16 instead of the MS1 8x8 although I'm not certain how much of a benefit that actually is on most engines. Where this makes the most difference is at idle/low RPM where you often find that opening the injector for another 100 microseconds makes the mixture too rich and closing it 100 microseconds earlier makes it run too lean so you end up "bracketing" the best value to achieve a compromise. You can offset this problem slightly by lowering the fuel pressure in the fuel rail as lower pressure means that the 100 microsecond step means less change in the actual fuel delivered, effectively increasing the resolution. Some regulators have a vacuum pipe which allows this to be done automatically so that when the engine is at high vacuum (low fuel demand) the fuel pressure in the rail is dropped. With an adjustable fuel regulator you can lower the fuel pressure overall if you find you're not running into fuel duty cycle limitations at high revs/loads. Often this can smooth the engine out, especially if the injectors are slightly over specced (a higher throughout than required) for the engine. you can also use it the other way by increasing the fuel pressure if you find the duty cycle is too high at high revs/load. The duty cycle is simply a measurement of the amount of time the injector is open vs the amount of time it is closed during the cycle. When you hit 100% duty cycle the injector isn't capable of delivering enough fuel for the engine. Generally speaking an MS2-Extra run engine will be able to run smoother and more consistently across the rev range. It is a noticeable difference when you drive it too - I run both versions on mine for development purposes so have done back to back comparisons on the same engine and even though the MS1 has been in use on that engine for 5 years now so has undergone a LOT of tweaking to the map, the MS2 ran better than the MS1 after a day or so of tuning. I've not yet tried the MS3 (but will be doing soon) but i expect that to be a slight improvement over the MS2 but probably not as noticeable as the jump from MS1 to MS2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I have been looking into this If I get a Chance I'll post up some pics and ramblings I have on this Yes it can be done of course it can, you will be treading a path that few have done, but the fundemental basics is its still a V8 and with some work from you there is nothing serioulsy major to worry about There are many plus and minus points about Thor vs "Traditional" V8s, but I am / have been looking at practicalities of this as I have been asked by peeps who have a thor and no desire to do anything more than just bolt a kit on - hence my interest Back maybe later this weekend Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 The main limitation of the MS1 generation of ECUs with the standard MS1-Extra code is the lack of resolution, especially when it comes to setting the fuelling up at low RPM. Essentially it comes down to how finely you can (or can't) control the opening time of the injectors and hence the accuracy of the fuelling. The amount of fuel injected is down to a combination of three things - the size of the injector, the pressure in the fuel line and the time that the injector is open for. The last one is adjusted by the MS ECU but with the MS1 ECU it can only adjust the timing in steps of 100 microseconds. By comparison the MS2 ECU can control the injection time in steps of 0.67 microseconds. The MS2 also has a bigger map table with 16x16 instead of the MS1 8x8 although I'm not certain how much of a benefit that actually is on most engines. Where this makes the most difference is at idle/low RPM where you often find that opening the injector for another 100 microseconds makes the mixture too rich and closing it 100 microseconds earlier makes it run too lean so you end up "bracketing" the best value to achieve a compromise. You can offset this problem slightly by lowering the fuel pressure in the fuel rail as lower pressure means that the 100 microsecond step means less change in the actual fuel delivered, effectively increasing the resolution. Some regulators have a vacuum pipe which allows this to be done automatically so that when the engine is at high vacuum (low fuel demand) the fuel pressure in the rail is dropped. With an adjustable fuel regulator you can lower the fuel pressure overall if you find you're not running into fuel duty cycle limitations at high revs/loads. Often this can smooth the engine out, especially if the injectors are slightly over specced (a higher throughout than required) for the engine. you can also use it the other way by increasing the fuel pressure if you find the duty cycle is too high at high revs/load. The duty cycle is simply a measurement of the amount of time the injector is open vs the amount of time it is closed during the cycle. When you hit 100% duty cycle the injector isn't capable of delivering enough fuel for the engine. Generally speaking an MS2-Extra run engine will be able to run smoother and more consistently across the rev range. It is a noticeable difference when you drive it too - I run both versions on mine for development purposes so have done back to back comparisons on the same engine and even though the MS1 has been in use on that engine for 5 years now so has undergone a LOT of tweaking to the map, the MS2 ran better than the MS1 after a day or so of tuning. I've not yet tried the MS3 (but will be doing soon) but i expect that to be a slight improvement over the MS2 but probably not as noticeable as the jump from MS1 to MS2. Ok, I wonder what the injection steps of the standard Lucas system is? Being a little lazy but do you have a maker or part number of these fuel regulators with vacuum? Is there a specific one I should try to get? I have been looking into this If I get a Chance I'll post up some pics and ramblings I have on this Yes it can be done of course it can, you will be treading a path that few have done, but the fundemental basics is its still a V8 and with some work from you there is nothing serioulsy major to worry about There are many plus and minus points about Thor vs "Traditional" V8s, but I am / have been looking at practicalities of this as I have been asked by peeps who have a thor and no desire to do anything more than just bolt a kit on - hence my interest Back maybe later this weekend Nige That'd be great if you could Nige, the main thing as I understand it is that the Thor manifold is better for low down torque, other than that, and the stat problem, is as far as my knowledge goes, I just fancied the Thor system as a change from the usual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagwit Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I've also done a Thor with MS2 and coil packs triggered by an external ignition box with 4 x BIP373's (actually a 4.0 converted to 4.6). I'm running the injectors batch fired. Dont bother with MS1. AFAIK it still does not have user programmable Inlet Air Temp fuel compensation. This will cause havoc with hot starts. MS2 is a beauty ito value for money, or go with MS3 (more $$$) if you want to go semi-sequential. IMHO there is very little incentive to go semi or fully sequential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Think I've found the regulator, their called rising rate regulators? Is that the one? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Something like this one... http://www.fuelpumps...-8mm-1901-p.asp Although you can normally find them from other suppliers cheaper, the Sytec stuff I've used for both V8s and TD5s has been spot on. Yes, they are sometimes called rising rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 I've also done a Thor with MS2 and coil packs triggered by an external ignition box with 4 x BIP373's (actually a 4.0 converted to 4.6). I'm running the injectors batch fired. Dont bother with MS1. AFAIK it still does not have user programmable Inlet Air Temp fuel compensation. This will cause havoc with hot starts. MS2 is a beauty ito value for money, or go with MS3 (more $$$) if you want to go semi-sequential. IMHO there is very little incentive to go semi or fully sequential. Thing is I don't want to overload myself on this, I'd rather buy a pretty much full kit from Nige and have a simple installation. How easy would it be to update to ms2 in the future? Is the wiring plug the same etc? After all anythings gonna be amazing compared to my knacked 3.5l 150?000 engine. Next for me is to research LPG megasquirt system, Im not sure there's much point running megasquirt and a mixer LPG system, might as well run a carb and megajolt I'm presuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagwit Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I'd rather buy a pretty much full kit from Nige and have a simple installation. How easy would it be to update to ms2 in the future? Yes, if you dont want to become and EFI boffin, get the full kit from someone who knows his stuff. I'm sure Nige would be able to supply you with MS2 if you ask him nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Dont bother with MS1. AFAIK it still does not have user programmable Inlet Air Temp fuel compensation. This will cause havoc with hot starts. Really? I fitted an IAT sensor for no reason then? Pretty sure there's a graph in MT you can pull the enrichment values about quite simply comapared to IAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Yep, Bowie is right. You change one parameter in an *.ini file and you then have the ability to correct for heatsoaked iat readings. See www.mez.co.uk and then go to the "other megasquirt stuff" page (I think that's the page anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagwit Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Really? I fitted an IAT sensor for no reason then? Pretty sure there's a graph in MT you can pull the enrichment values about quite simply comapared to IAT. No, trouble was that it DID use the IAT, but overcorrected based on the PV=nRT formula. I only picked up in passing that MS1 has this issue (I dont do any MS1 stuff) but a lot of water has passed under the bridge in the mean time and most likely its been sorted by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Riiiiiighty-ho... Yes MS-1 is lower resolution but I've not heard anyone have problems because of this apart from people running custom setups with (very) oversizse injectors. There is high-res code for the MS1 which loses injector PWM (probably not used anyway) but gives much higher timing resolution if you really feel the need. It's only really an issue if your injectors are open for a very short time at idle relative to the 100-microsecond minimum increment as it's then a significant percentage change. If your injectors are open for 10ms at idle, adjustment of +-100uS is only a 1% change. I can't remember what the real-life numbers are but as I said I've never had a problem and I don't know anyone with a standard setup who has. Yes you can "upgrade" MS1 to MS2 later on, but MS1 does everything you need for a Rover V8 and is much less complicated, which is a definite plus for a first-time installer. For fuel pressure regulators, why not just use the factory one, fairly sure they can be used externally / off the fuel rail and have a vacuum feed. Apart from that the Thor is just a weird-looking plenum chamber on top of exactly the same V8, really nothing scary about it. You need to work out which way the throttle sensor is wired, and investigate how the idle-air-bypass valve works & is plumbed. Neither are major stumbling blocks. jagwit - would it be better to stick to what you *know* rather than confuse others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagwit Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 jagwit - would it be better to stick to what you *know* rather than confuse others? So noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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