jimconline Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Drips from the oil sump have turned into a trickle. I have a new tube of RTV (Permatex), oil drained, 22 bolts removed, old sealant around the flange attacked with great effort, and the pan won't budge. The pan been off before and I think someone grabbed a two-for-one sale on tubes of sealant and used them both. Before prying off (and distorting the flange) I thought I'd seek some advice. Thanks...jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Which model is it ? On the Td5 there were a couple of bolts that would be easy to miss from memory..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 1996 Defender 110 300Tdi. I've got all the bolts according to the service manual. Sure can't see any more. Will just have to keep slicing away at the solidified goo: problem is, it's impossible to get at some areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 get some hardwood wedges & hammer them in the joint to help open it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Or get a DIY filler knife, sharpen an edge and use a hammer to tap it into the joint and around the circumference to cut the sealant. You can then use a sharpened chisel to clean the exposed faces once the sump is off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Good thoughts. I will try the hardwood wedges and if that doesn't work (though I suspect it will) I'll move on to the filler knife. I've been hesitant to drive anything between the flanges: worried about bending the metal. Time to stop worrying. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Get a thin guitar string with a lump of wood on each end as a handle, and pull/saw with it to cut through the mastic - should not do too much damage to mating faces and may cut the sticky stuff more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 ....to add....obviously dont try to go all the way back with it as the oil lift gears are in the way, but the first few inches from the front should be ok I'd imagine, just to break the seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 You won't harm anything with the filler knife - it acts more like a thin wedge than a blade, though semi sharpening the leading edge will make it work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Success, thanks to the clever suggestions of wedges and filler knife. Sliced through as much of the gasket (yes, someone had used a gasket) as I could using a filler knife and small hammer. Got as much as I could reach but it still wouldn't budge. So I drove in about ten 1 1/2" wide wedges widely spaced around the pan and, with a pry bar at the front end I gently separated the pan from the block. I swear I heard music. Quite a job ahead to clean off the gasket; tenacious sucker. Thanks for the help! Most appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hallelujah! Glad it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 Everything cleaned up and reassembled. Still dripping oil. It wasn't the seal around the sump. With everything cleaned, however, it was easier to see what appears (stress "what appears") to be the culprit. There is oil dripping from the hole for the wading plug in the timing cover (see photo - ignore yellow circle). A bit more work ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Might as well replace the belt while you're replacing the oil seals. If you don't intend to replace the belt idler pulley, a least check it very carefully - a lot of people don't replace it to save cost, but the sealed bearings do eventually wear and can cause belt failure in severe cases. Use the correct puller to get the crank sprocket off - don't use pry bars or levers as you'll damage the teeth or lip and will have to replace the sprocket outright. A piece of angle or thick steel bar with a couple of bolts (M6 from memory, but not certain about that) will do as a puller. Tapping it back in place, use a drift like a length of tube that fits over the cranks and woodruff key - don't use a hammer or drift directly on the sprocket except a length of timber, but try to use something that will distribute the force around the whole sprocket, not just one side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 If you've got the front of a TDi open you'd be mad not to do the cambelt and anything else in range IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted February 27, 2015 Author Share Posted February 27, 2015 The timing belt has been changed twice in the past six years: once by Landrover (the only option at that point) and the other time by an independent garage. Both in Botswana where friends looked after the Tortoise between my travels. It appears neither did an acceptable job. The last one was done just before I shipped the Defender over a couple of years ago. Granted I put a lot of miles on her but still... Will certainly heed advice and "do anything in range". Have a couple of long road trips ahead this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Before a big trip, change everything, you can always keep the old parts as known good spares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 With parts and timing toolkit finally in hand, I went to work today and got the timing cover off. The photo shows what looks like rubber sawdust mixed with oil. Lots of it. 30,000km ago the timing belt was changed. 18,000km before that it was also changed. I did neither of them. What concerns me is the rubber bits. The workshop manual calls this debris and notes, "If excessive belt debris is evident in the front cover, this is probably due to the misalignment of the timing cover caused by incorrect assembly of the fuel injection pump bracket." The last garage replaced the fuel pump at the same time. The manual refers you to FUEL SYSTEM, Repair, Fuel Injection pump, but, even after referring to this section, I'm not sure how to correctly assemble the fuel injection pump bracket. Any thoughts would be welcomed. One further note, perhaps off base. The workshop manual states that the excessive debris is probably due to the misalignment of the timing cover. The timing cover was missing six (yes 6) of the 15 bolts. Might this be the cause of the misalignment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Have decided to march through the Repair, Fuel Injection Pump section of the workshop manual which will hopefully correct any issues with alignment. Thankful now that I did order the timing toolkit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Looking at the rubber debris inside the timing cover, I'd suggest the problem is down to incorrectly fitted timing pulley/tensioner which is skewing the belt over slightly. Looks like the pulley has been rubbing on the timing cover as well - they've probably left the spacer behind the pulley when they fitted the later type, which makes it stick out at a slight angle and drags the belt against the lip on the bottom sprocket and against the timing cover - which also means the cover doesn't go on quite right and maybe why they left the bolts out... So remove the tensioner pulley and look for a spacer washer - if its there bin it and fit new tensioner/belt. Don't start meddling with the FIP, I doubt this is your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Yep, there's something wrong with the tensioner - not only is it where the rubber deposits are heaviest but you can see where one of the pulleys has been rubbing the front cover. It could be loose, the back plate bent or they fitted the slotted washer at the back instead of the front of the pulley wheel, putting everything out of line. A whole new timing belt and tensioner kit will fix it. Check the guide plates on the crank pulley are secure (spot welds can break) and not damaged. When you remove the pulley to replace the crank seal, use a puller into the threaded holes. DO NOT pry the pulley off as it will distort; it's very soft. You will need an annular drift to spread the load when tapping it back in - a plain drift will apply uneven force and distort the pulley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 After reading these posts, I'm glad friends dropped over yesterday so I didn't get at the Tortoise. Will happily leave the FIP alone and follow advice. Thank you. Of the six bolts that were missing, I'd replaced two that I could see and thought that was it. The other four were the 35mm length bolts to the very right closest to the pulley, so your theory about the cover not fitting quite right makes sense. These bolts are not readily visible which is how I missed them. On the topic of the oil leak, I'll be replacing the crankshaft oil seal (ERR7143) and the o-ring (ERR4710) when I change the pulley (LHH100660). Not knowing where the oil was coming from, I also ordered a camshaft oil seal (ERR3356). It does not look to me like there is oil coming from the camshaft so I am tempted to leave it alone. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 If it aint broken, don't fix it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimconline Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 No spacer under the pulley but the photo showing the build up of belt debris is pretty confirming that the problem lay here or close by. The other photo leaves little doubt to me that the oil is coming in through the crankshaft seal. Onward now to make a puller to get the pulley off as suggested. Neither the idler nor tensioner I took off were Land Rover parts as I had requested and been billed. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The timing belt has been changed twice in the past six years: once by Landrover (the only option at that point) and the other time by an independent garage. Both in Botswana where friends looked after the Tortoise between my travels. It appears neither did an acceptable job. The last one was done just before I shipped the Defender over a couple of years ago. Granted I put a lot of miles on her but still... Will certainly heed advice and "do anything in range". Have a couple of long road trips ahead this year. Lesedi Motors? Now ask why I do all my own servicing.... Definitely replace the timing belt and idler pulley (and belt drive sprocket if it's the old moldel without the shoulders). The modest cost isn't worth saving if you end up breaking the belt and bend push rods and possibly con rods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 No spacer under the pulley but the photo showing the build up of belt debris is pretty confirming that the problem lay here or close by. The other photo leaves little doubt to me that the oil is coming in through the crankshaft seal. Onward now to make a puller to get the pulley off as suggested. Neither the idler nor tensioner I took off were Land Rover parts as I had requested and been billed. Sigh. Timing-Belt03.jpgTiming-Belt04.jpg How can you see if the parts are "genuine" or not? LR doesn't literaly badge the parts as far as I know, they badge the package the part comes in. And most parts they buy from others (seals from Corteco, steering bits from Adwest, glo-plugs from Beru, etc.). I recommend that you loosen the injection pump fittings to the timing cover, pump to bracket as well as the pump bracket to block bolts, and then re-tighten/torque as set out in the workshop manual. To do this you'll need to set the engine to TDC; you'll also need to either lock the timing gear to the cover so that you don't loose your timing advance, or else you'll need to reset your advance once you've refit all of the pump fixings. You'll be doing well if you have a trained vervet monkey that can get at some of the bolts that you will need to torque. And replace the camshaft seal - ERR3356 - while you're in there. I don't remember if it's accessible without pulling the rear cover off (hope it is, otherwise there'll be yet more work to do...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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