Defender steering vs series steering - which is more rugged?

[twodoorgaz]

If you ignore the 'power assisted' element for a second...

Which steering system is tougher - Series or Defender?

By tougher I mean is there one that is known to stand up to off road use/overland travel in the long-term better than the other?

Am debating whether to spec PAS mounts on my next series chassis and am looking for an excuse to keep the original set-up (other than originality) - NB I've posted in this section to avoid any that'll mean a chassis mod - vosa/iva/sva discussion..

On my last Series build I had the steering box and relay reconditioned by ICS and it was fitted with all new ball joints on rebuilt axles. It was set-up and drove really well. Still heavy and not as precise as a defender but certainly not a liability.

My only complaint about the series system is that it is a little overcomplicated with having a box AND a relay - leading to additional ball joints and rods.

The defender system does without the relay - but I'm given to understand that the boxes themselves can be a touch temperamental. I've only ever driven new defenders (used to sell them) so I've never had to live with an older one. Conversely I've driven dozens of old series land rovers with criminally-neglected steering and, while hardly responsive, they still functioned and still got you to your destination.

The new vehicle will have TIC discs, a modern engine and box and parabolics and it feels weird ignoring the steering you see.

Thanks.

[daslandroverman]

Stick a P38 steering box on it, cheap enough, tough enough, and eliminates 33% of the ball joints from the system.

The main causes of vague steering on a Defender etc is box wear, knackered UJ's in the column, ball joint wear and knackered bushes on the axle locating arms, most commonly the panhard rod.

Put it all together on a series chassis and if all the wearing parts are new it'll be a long time before it gives trouble.

You'll need a steering damper as an ideal too.

[Dave W]

I suspect that the Series steering setup is more prone to failure than a 90/110 setup purely based on the number of joints and moving parts. The 90/110 setup is much simpler. One option you may not have considered is that not all 90/110s had power steering and the "manual" box has exactly the same fittings as a PAS box so the two can be interchanged once you have the chassis mounting sorted. Having said that the PAS box is very reliable in normal use and makes driving the vehicle a lot less effort,

[FridgeFreezer]

Also be aware the common 4-bolt box is the "light duty" one, the 6-bolt is rated as "Heavy duty" (fitted to 130's & HCPU's) and the Disco 2 one (different mount) is supposed to be stronger in the sector shaft than the others. I don't know what the 3-bolt & 5-bolt, P38, etc. are rated as, I'd assume the P38 one would be fairly robust as it's a heavy & relatively rapid vehicle compared to a Defender.

I don't think Series is going to be much different to stock defender, I'd guess the relay shaft would be the weak point (a-la sector shaft in the PAS-boxes).

I think the Series setup is less precise, and IMHO that's a big plus.

If the truck is mostly standard then I wouldn't worry about it, both systems are fine.

[Snagger]

If you want to stick to manual steering but have the future proofing of being set up ready for PAS, then go for the 90/110 manual system - it uses the same steering columns (both upper and lower) and drag link as the PAS version and the steering box fits the same chassis brackets, so it'd just be a matter of swapping the box and adding a pump, pulleys and hydraulic lines.

However, if you're not dead set on keeping manual steering, go straight for a P38 box. They are tougher and more reliable than the Adwest Defender/Disco 1/RRC type and the brackets could be installed whilst retaining the Series steering parts too, allowing you to change back if you chose. The P38 box has about the same gear ratio as the SIII box, so the same road wheel displacement for a given steering wheel movement, so handling is completely unchanged, but the wander is gone and the steering is feather light (I can turn the wheel lock to lock with one little finger while parked). While I always thought it was an un-necessary luxury/lazy mod, it was in fact one of the most transformative changes I made and I should have done it years ago. I have a fully write up with photos on my blog.

[Carloz]

TS: "By tougher I mean is there one that is known to stand up to off road use/overland travel in the long-term better than the other?"

Nobody seems to mention the crazy track rod position on the 90/110/Defender/Disco/RRC!

It is in a unbelievable bad location! Maybe suitable on a on-road vehicle but not at all on a 4x4!

[twodoorgaz]

Excellent info there folks - thank you very much. I'll have a chat with richards when I order my chassis - I know they can do a defender PAS mount by moving the crossmember forward (bit nervous about that in case it affects the look o the front of the Series) and I'm sure they can make a nice set of P38 brackets - either a pair of bumps on the rail with crush tubes or the heavy angle bracket like landypoint.de. I love the idea of future-proofing the chassis and the point about a manual box with the option to upgrade is excellent. I do like to keep things simple, so a manual defender box without the complexity of the series relay but with the option to upgrade in my dotage is very appealing indeed. 1) chat to richards 2) make a decision 3) find a box. PS thanks for the info re 3, 4, 5 and 6 bolt boxes - I'd heard the terms before but not gavin much experience with coilers I was a bit wooly on the subject.

[Magic mike]

Hi newbie the my first Landy Series 3

Can anyone say exactly the parts needed for a P38 conversion please ie

Defender upper column

P38 steering box

?

?

What lower column do you need?

Do I remove the old steering right down to where the P38 box fits and everything north of that is defender or range classic?

Appreciate any help many thanks.

Mike

[Chicken Drumstick]

Hi newbie the my first Landy Series 3

Can anyone say exactly the parts needed for a P38 conversion please ie

Defender upper column

P38 steering box

?

?

What lower column do you need?

Do I remove the old steering right down to where the P38 box fits and everything north of that is defender or range classic?

Appreciate any help many thanks.

Mike

Have a look here:

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/PowerSteering.htm

It should help most of the answers.

I'm just about to fit PAS to my 88 and will take pictures. Will probably be doing the work next weekend.

[Snagger]

Try rereading the thread carefully - as I said, I have extensively documented the conversion in my blog, with plenty of photos and showing all the finishing jobs like fabricating mud shields to cover the box and new column under the wheel arch. The only differences you'd face would eb the length of your drag link, unless you are also using Defender/Discover/RRC axles, and the pump bracket. The conversions on expeditionrover are good, but most use other steering parts more easily sourced in the US. There is one P38 conversion on there, but most use the Saginaw box.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Try rereading the thread carefully - as I said, I have extensively documented the conversion in my blog, with plenty of photos and showing all the finishing jobs like fabricating mud shields to cover the box and new column under the wheel arch. The only differences you'd face would eb the length of your drag link, unless you are also using Defender/Discover/RRC axles, and the pump bracket. The conversions on expeditionrover are good, but most use other steering parts more easily sourced in the US. There is one P38 conversion on there, but most use the Saginaw box.

Thanks, just had a look.

How are you getting on with it, is it holding up ok?

I think I read it correct, you didn't go for crush tubes at all in the end and the box is essentially bolted only to one side of the chassis rail, rather spanning the width of the rail and beefing up both sides of it?

[zim]

Snagger, have you got a link to your blog ?

I'm really tempted by this - have a p38 parked up for bits and an older defender steering column. Which lower steering column & uj will I need ?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Snagger, have you got a link to your blog ?

I'm really tempted by this - have a p38 parked up for bits and an older defender steering column. Which lower steering column & uj will I need ?

It's in his sig:

www.nickslandrover.co.uk

Just browse the RH side for Steering.

[zim]

Thanks, I'm offshore so use the mobile version which doesn't show it.

[Snagger]

I now live in Dubai, so the 109 is in storage, but it ran beautifully until we left. The only snag I had was the first pump bracket cracking, so I ran it for a week with the belt removed (no strain on the bracket that way) until I had time to make a new one. Like that, it was just like the original steering, so not only does it drive incredibly easily with no change in gearing ratio (same result for a given input), but able to easily turn the steering lock to lock with one little finger while stationary, but it also has good redundancy if you have hydraulic or belt failure. It did get rid of all he road wandering of the old system (which was in perfect condition and adjustment, but still had cumulative play and slop from the sprung relay bushes and the manner in which the steering box rocker shaft works).

The P38 PAS box bolt pattern puts the bolts above and below the chassis, not through it, so a sturdy plate welded outboard is sufficient, no need for crush tubes or cross member relocation/alteration. I used 8mm plate with reinforcing gussets running from the corners across the top and bottom of the chassis rail. This is similar, but heavier, than the P38 chassis bracket. I also used a P38 pump, which accepts the earlier V-belt pulley from a 200Tdi or earlier without alteration, just a direct swap. Use the P38 lower column (just adjusted to shorter length by slackening the clamp) and a Defender upper column - any will do as they all have the same bottom end splines. The upper end varies with age, so you'll need to be careful about steering wheels. The Series wheel will fit the columns for the mid aged Defender, one of the Tdis, but I cant remember which. However, you'll have to get clever with modding the column if you want to retain the Series indicator stalk and shroud. I just used Defender switch gear and shroud so that the wheel auto-cancels the indicators correctly and there isn't an enormous gap between the wheel and shroud. I also used the late (TD5/TDCI) column and wheel as it has a smaller diameter, improving the space for you legs and elbows.

[ejparrott]

Excellent info there folks - thank you very much. I'll have a chat with richards when I order my chassis - I know they can do a defender PAS mount by moving the crossmember forward (bit nervous about that in case it affects the look o the front of the Series)

No it doesn't. What they do is use the Stage 1 V8 setup, the tabs which support the front panel are further forward but point backwards so the front panel doesn't move. I've got one in my garage ready for when I finally get round to building my 109.

[Snagger]

As Ed says, it won't affect the appearance because the apron panel between the rad panel and bumper will hide the cross member. However, there is no need for that if you use the better P38 box as it sits outboard, not inboard like the Adwest box. The sole advantage is that it save cutting a big hole in the inner wing that needs a panel fabricating to keep the engine bay segregated from the wheel arch, which is little hardship.

One issue that users with the original Series axles will face that I didn't with the Defender axles is the possibility of the swivel-axle flange striking the bottom of the box output shaft on large axle articulation; I don't think there would be a problem, but just make sure you site the box accordingly. I had to site mine immediately ahead of the V-gusset for the bumpstops/axle straps (unmodified) because the nose of the PAS box was close tot he oil cooler pipes going into my rad. I think you have more space if you have a Series rad, so can move the box forward so that the swivel flange is behind the box shaft. Defender axles are longer, so the swivel flange is well outboard of the box.

[Chicken Drumstick]

What did you do with the upper mount on the column? Just cut it off?

[ejparrott]

I did, nothing to mount it too

[Snagger]

I cut the welds to give a smooth column, but you could probably just cut the protruding flange. You could fabricate a bracket to attach tot he bulkhead top like the Defender, but it's not necessary - the column is secured by the Series clamp on the engine side of the bulkhead and by a bracket you need to make up at it's forward end, so is as secure as the original Series column without that third top stay.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Thanks.