How good or rubbish are non LR's off road?

[Ed Poore]

I recently did a few days (cut short by an issue on the L322) laning with a few different vehicles in Wales (first three went on to Scotland as well):

1. P38 that's got SSTs, winch, protection, snorkel but no lift (IIRC) [experienced driver]
2. Defender 90 that had spacers, can't remember tyres but decent, snorkel, roof rack [experienced driver]
3. Jeep Cherokee (old style) as standard [moderately experienced driver]
4. Pajero (not Shogun) auto which was lifted, bigger tyres, snorkel, protection, roof rack, light bars, gauges (lots of toys basically) [novice driver]
5. My L322 - standard apart from Duratracs fitted and G4 sump guard, no side steps or mud flaps [experienced driver - well he says so]

P38 had no issues reliability wise from what I hear and coped very well.

Defender - cooked alternator, battery, radio, spacers got knackered and damaged prop.

Jeep - got stuck a couple of times when the others didn't but apart from 322 was bog standard. My main comment was my god the diff was low to the ground.

Pajero - coped very well, being an auto helped out the lack of experience. Was quite wide for the lanes and tall. His main gripe was the lack of space inside - they were spending two weeks camping etc and there just wasn't much space. Admittedly he did bring everything including the kitchen sink and a "home" cinema on the side of the truck - projector screen for the middle of fields.

L322 - made everything look easy, phenomenally capable and actually once lifted up to off-road height had the greatest clearance of any of the vehicles. Although I did scrape some ruts walls with the wishbones due to the independent suspension setup. I conned it once into going into extended mode and boy did I get a shock when I jumped out of the car without realising it had done that.

Of the 5 vehicles I would hands down say that the most capable vehicle as standard was the L322 - even with all the plastic bumpers it offered comparable approach and descent angles compared to the others (helped by removable tow bar). But I am just about to settle up a substantial garage bill because I did something to the transfer box... (Unsure whether it caused by the laning or was pre-existing but manifested itself then). I have also fitted over the course of ~2 years 10 tyres to the thing after writing off 3 on laning trips (thanks Chris!). On the road I think you all know the answer. As for a tow vehicle I did see the irony in towing the 3.6TDV8 with a 300Tdi 110 - and it felt it. However the previous time it was the other way around and the 322 hardly noticed the 110 behind it.

I continue to get amazed by what the 322 (helped no doubt by the cross-linked suspension) can do. But the main thing is you have to drive it how it wants to be driven not how you want to. You'll be amazed at where the traction control can get you - even on road tyres. But fitting some half-decent tyres (I wish I could get some taller ones more easily) turns it into a monstrously capable vehicle. The major downside is the repair costs - although there are a few of us now playing more seriously with them and more and more jobs are "becoming" DIYable. In a few years I would love to rip out the multitude of ECUs and replace them with my (one) own as a bit of a challenge...

I'm not massively familiar with the new Shoguns but have taken Dad's gently off-road and it's been capable, particularly with the three locking diffs as standard. However even with traction control I don't think they'd have the suspension capability that the L322 or D3/D4s would on their air suspension. Cab comfort on the road and off-road again would be won by the Land Rover based ones - but it's largely down to the owner whether they'd be willing to abuse the interior as much.

[For those after a com

[honitonhobbit]

Watch that second sump on the TDV8

I was lucky enough to work for LR when the L322 was launched. Hell my wedding car was a pre-proddy L322

Without doubt the L322 is the text book example of what LR can do right (and wrong) in a vehicle when they pool all that knowledge about driving off road. To not be able to drive an L322 off road you have to be dead.... I do rather prefer the BMW V8

[Ed Poore]

Watch that second sump on the TDV8

I was lucky enough to work for LR when the L322 was launched. Hell my wedding car was a pre-proddy L322

Without doubt the L322 is the text book example of what LR can do right (and wrong) in a vehicle when they pool all that knowledge about driving off road. To not be able to drive an L322 off road you have to be dead.... I do rather prefer the BMW V8

Mantec guard goes back to the rear of the front subframe so protects a fair bit. The only bit that's not actually tucked up out of the way are the two piddly silencers on the exhaust.

I would kind of like a petrol V8 but been doing silly mileage at the moment so a cruising fuel consumption of 30-35mpg is not to be sniffed at compared to the petrol.

[honitonhobbit]

I was meaning don't forget to empty it. Saw the results of a garage not bothering on a TDV8 a couple of weeks back. The Vehicle had then gone on to be sold for 4k - it was a 60 plate.

A complete engine re-build takes three days and after both turbo let go they tend to make a re-build a requirement

[Ed Poore]

Haven't got around to doing a service myself but I was aware of the two sump drain plugs. Cheers though!

[Cynic-al]

I don't know a great deal about the l322 but I do love the technology on them I think it's a great balance between comfort and off road ability as is the d3 and 4. The only thing that would worry me about owning an older one for offroading is the reliability. I've only ever done 1 days laning, it wasn't for me, but there was a real mixed bag of vehicles, it was very basic stuff, but the only car that didn't make it all the way was an l322. It's suspension dropped to the floor and wouldn't raise up. What really spoke to me was he and a few of the disco owners were carrying a diagnostic computer.

Is that because they're too complicated or is it because it's the modern day equivalent of me carrying a socket set?

[honitonhobbit]

Super Simple is the only way to go. Luxury is fun, fun, fun, but if you can't fix it or bodge it to get home what's the point?

[Ed Poore]

I think it's not the modern day equivalent but rather a supplement. One thing I've found from using it for everything I used to use the Defender for is that it's been very much built to protect itself. Our very own Mr. Rafferty pointed out that, some, or all, of them have torque sensing diffs which, by way of an example, if it senses it's going to get to the point of breaking a shaft backs off the engine to prevent it.

Consequently a load of error codes tend to get thrown up to inform the user / garage that such an event occurred. It's the same as the limp home mode, sometimes something small can trigger it but the car can't quite figure out what caused it - if you know what it was and there isn't going to be lasting damage then you can clear it and tell it to carry on.

If I'm honest apart from my stupidity with low-profile tyres (255/55R19) the faults I've had - bar the transfer box one (which I haven't found out the full details yet) - have been wear and tear from owning a 140,000 mile car. Keeping on top of servicing and some preventative maintenance goes a long way. The only one that could be considered a potential design flaw is the alternator is a bit weedy and down the bottom of the engine for someone who'll take it through water.

Turbos etc can be solved by actually driving them rather than pootling around, at least I've not (touch wood) had any issues and have been known to take on boy racers (I may or may not have had a trailer with the 110 on the back in one situation)...

But we're diverging off-topic somewhat...

[BogMonster]

This is an interesting thread. My experience is in a very different environment from others but here goes.

Defenders are excellent at more or less everything except driving on the road.

Crewcabs (basically all of them) suffer from being too light on the back, let the front stop in a ditch or wet bit and you get stuck. Plus the suspension articulation is poor and the suspension is hopelessly mismatched if you have a long way to go and need to press on (front suspension bounces like Zebedee, rear kicks like a grumpy camel). I daresay TC helps with keeping forward movement but neither of my Rangers has it and will easily stop waving wheels.

Shoguns/Pajeros (older models pre 2002) and Prado/Colorado are actually pretty good. Not a Defender, but better than a Discovery in many situations. Especially the UK model Shoguns/Colorados with a rear difflock. I now have a 2015 Shogun, but I haven't got it dirty yet, and don't really intend to.

D1/D2 are OK if you can get rid of the plastic bits but in reality if you want it to look normal they are compromised. Both are too heavy on the back end and will tend to drag their butt in soft ground (and you can't put big enough tyres on without serious alterations)

D3 with coils are hopeless in my limited experience. Not tried the air suspension ones off road but for here they are simply too heavy and sink. All the electronics in the world are no use if it's buried deep enough that you can't open the doors to see that all the wheels are indeed turning....

General issues: everything needs decent tyres so that is assumed above, and the modern trend of silly 18/19/20+ inch rims is really getting in the way of that. Standard tyres on almost everything (including Defenders) are invariably rubbish. Anything with plastic bumpers or non flexible plastic bits underneath or low down (e.g. around the D3 spare wheel... mudflaps ... sills) will leave significant parts of itself behind fairly quickly in any interesting off road situation. It gets expensive, and you start to look like you've had a crash, so it is a problem unless you really don't care about either.

My 2006 27,000 mile 300Tdi Defender will be staying with me for a while yet

[Cynic-al]

My ranger didn't drive out of that but I think with traction control it would have. The skid pan underneath was strong enough to take the weight though without damage

[Ed Poore]

Driving back up from Portsmouth this evening it highlighted how much independent suspension helps on the road. Quite often (it is Surrey & Hampshire after all) I'd hit a pothole and in the Defender you could feel that be transmitted through the axle. Particularly going around a corner where it felt like the whole vehicle would shimmy across. With the 322 all you really hear / sort of feel is a small bang as the wheel drops down but the car tracks true.

[honitonhobbit]

I think the Mk3 Rangers are about the best. Still Mazda. Good Skid plates as well - although a PITA to take off when doing an oil change

[Cynic-al]

I had a lot of suspension problems with mine and the dealers and warranty were a waste of time. Drove well though.

[honitonhobbit]

The rear leaves don't last long and the torsion bars tend to come out in sympathy - Iron Man is one of the ways to go

[BogMonster]

I think the Mk3 Rangers are about the best. Still Mazda. Good Skid plates as well - although a PITA to take off when doing an oil change

That's what mine is - 2011 but mine still has the 2.5 Mazda turbodiesel. Nice lump, and still has a proper injector pump.

[Cynic-al]

The only thing to go on my mk1 ranger was the fuel pump which Ford lost whilst getting it reconditioned. They ended up putting a new one on at 'no extra cost' but the bill was still £1600 :/

The drop links kept failing amongst other things on the mk3 and I scrapped loads of tyres. Ford did the drop links for free but wouldn't contribute anything to the fact I was having to replace tyres that had only done 3000 miles. The spare alloy wheel suffered terrible corrosion but the warranty on those was only a year but aftwr arguing they offered to only charge me 30% of the cost, nearly £300. At 2 years old it struggled to start so I took it in. They diagnosed a loose alternator belt and after they tightened it it fired up a treat. A month later they phoned to tell me they'd actually put a new battery on and wanted an extra £400. I told them it was under warranty, nope, only a year on batteries. I told them to come take it off and put my old one back on as I could get a 5 year warranty bosch for £80. 3 months later they told me they'd accept £80. The list goes on and on.

Drove well thought, it was a little high geared for towing. Once I was bringing a trailer load of slabs from leeds. Every light was against me and the hills were steep and the clutch was starting to smell so I set off in low box, got it to 3rd then went to high 1st. Can't do that with an electronic system

[GW8IZR]

Drove well thought, it was a little high geared for towing. Once I was bringing a trailer load of slabs from leeds. Every light was against me and the hills were steep and the clutch was starting to smell so I set off in low box, got it to 3rd then went to high 1st. Can't do that with an electronic system

same with the Navara which I had twenty odd on the fleet, they all did the same thing.. select low range or 4wd , get onto a firm surface and go back to 2wd.. nope just a flashing led , drive forward and backward, turn it a bit either way, up and down curbs kick and swear and twenty minutes later with a resounding thump it would eventually let go and select 2wd. It was refreshing to get a nice lever in the Hilux.

Also the Navara back springs would go flat after a few months and at least one of my drivers ended up on a weigh bridge because a roadside check claimed the flat springs meant it was overloaded. It was way under and always had been.

I always found the navara to be nice to drive as a car but it wasnt a work tool and I think Nissan felt the same, every single failure was 'driver abuse' to the point that I was on 1st name terms with the customer service team.

[Cynic-al]

I agree, the Nissan we had at work was a lovely big car but not a worker.

That doesn't surprise me regarding Nissan, my dads friend had an x-trail which he bought for towing his caravan and the engine blew up on it. Nissan claimed it shouldn't be used for towing a caravan. It makes you wonder why they advertise that vehicle in every caravan magazine as the car you should buy for caravan towing?

[GW8IZR]

I remember sitting in a meeting with the lease provider and a guy from Nissan and running then current Navara advert on my laptop .. the one where the car kept morphing into odd animals and leaping over boulders and swimming rivers. So what do you sell this road car as then?

To be fair, mine saved my skin at the end. A woman in a BMW 5 pulled out of a side road into my path as I was doing about 50mph, I hit her right at the A post. I thought I'd killed her and both vehicles were destroyed. Engine of the Nav ended up under the passenger seat, but due to the safety stuff in modern vehicles we both walked away unscathed ( I had a burn from my arm rubbing down the door trim, she was deaf after the bang of the 53 air bags that went off) . Both passenger cells were deformed but still big enough that nothing really injured either of us. In a 90/110 I think it might have been different for both of us.

[Bowie69]

And that last post there explains the difference in very graphic terms as to what 'old' and 'new' technology means in the automotive world.

[Chicken Drumstick]

And that last post there explains the difference in very graphic terms as to what 'old' and 'new' technology means in the automotive world.

But not in the context of this thread and a vehicles off road abilities.

[Cynic-al]

You were lucky, the Navara only had 2 stars NCAP at one point. I assume thats more to do with side impact etc though as I assume 2 tonnes bolted to a ladder chassis is going cause other people more problems than you in most situations.

I think what can be summarised from the replies is that most people need a vehicle to do more than offroad and are willing to sacrifice that offroad ability for comfort, safety, mpg, load capacity etc. If you just want offroad ability and have £7k to spend why not try pickup a whitbread, it'll knock the socks off a 90 for the same reason that an out the box 90 would out perform an out the box Discovery - bodywork!

[honitonhobbit]

Always wanted to own a 78 or 79 Cruiser. Saw a 79 crew cab at the AO last year - still with the 4.2 TD. Just love them. Used a 78 a lot for work some years back - just about perfect for anything really...

[GW8IZR]

You were lucky, the Navara only had 2 stars NCAP at one point. I assume thats more to do with side impact etc though as I assume 2 tonnes bolted to a ladder chassis is going cause other people more problems than you in most situations.

Anyone that walks away from a serious collision considers themselves lucky no matter what they are driving.

Had I been in a series 1 80' I might have been much safer as it probably wouldn’t have been doing 50mph, lets face it ten feet sooner or later and the collision wouldn't have happened so you can only really look at the end result. What actually happened v what might have happened isn’t always helpful.

CD you want us to focus purely on the off road capabilities and thats fair enough but its nothing to do with the real world and real traffic - I'm sorry but I dont think you can *entirely* divorce the discussion.

Would it be easier if I just said that in my experience an old stock LR is better off road than a stock Japanese pickup or LC style car - if thats all you need to hear lots of people have already said it before me and thats the end of the discussion really. :-)

[Ed Poore]

Can't do that with an electronic system

I think you'll find that Land Rover specifically designed that capability into the 322 and Disco's (probably Sports as well). There are certain limits on what speeds you can be doing for the change to occur (something like <25 mph for Hi->Low and <30 for Low->High, basically physical limitations) but all you have to do is push the button and let it take care of it for you, it'll do the selection of the main box's gear for you as well as the shift to ensure no grinding of transfer box teeth.

Damn sight easier than when I have had to do it in the Defender which involves some dexterity to change two gear sticks while double de-clutching to match the transfer-box gears.

No comment about other vehicles though, not driven a non-LR automatic with electrickery.