Running Thor 4.6 stand alone?

[WesBrooks]

Afternoon all,

More speculative questions! This is not currently underway but I'd like to know what would be involved in running a 4.6 thor engine stand alone? Is it best to spec for direct to MS or can you power the engine ECU and get it to run the engine without needing to talk to any other vehicle electronics?

I understand direct to MS is an option, but for a build ECU and kit you won't see much change from a grand. I'd like that as a winter project another year after enjoying it as is for a while!

I'm interested in the 4.6 for the cross bolting and larger journals. The interest in the Thor is the better low RPM torque curve. Is GEMs then swap top end at a later date a better option, or does the crank sensor in the thor make KS a neater install on that engine? I'm guessing odds are better blocks the earlier you go?

Cheers,

Wes.

[WesBrooks]

Had a look at this site:

http://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/ms_faq.php

This would give the impression the 4.0 had less issues with slipped liners than the 4.6 engines? I thought the issue was block tooling wearing out and the increase in bore to reach the 94mm bore used in 3.9/4.0/4.6? Guess it could be purely the mapping on the 4.6s...

So if Thor it looks like you'd have to budget for MS from the start?

[FridgeFreezer]

I thought later blocks were supposed to be better - whatever, I've never found any reliable facts on the issue, just rumour, hearsay, and armchair experts clamouring to warn about how many kittens will die if you fit a 4.0 / 4.6 / 3.9 / anything not a TDi I just bought one that ran & drove & didn't smoke / overheat / leak.

TBH I think once the rumour gets round about slipped liners, every engine problem becomes a slipped liner, a bit like every problem with a Freelander must be the head gasket failure even if it's a flat tyre

You can do MS much cheaper than the full kit from Nige with a bit of effort, but you're paying for the amount of time & faffing about you're saving + a quality install. Depends if you value your time doing things like fabricating brackets or fishing coil packs from scrapyards. Nige supplies all brand-new bits so it's always going to cost more.

[WesBrooks]

Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression I was knocking the cost of the kit. I was just trying to figure out what engine was best to aim for in terms of GEMs or Thor and if either could be run with just an ECU and no other boxes of electronics from the donor. Ideally I want to get a second hand engine that I've seen running which I'm confident is in reasonable nick to run until MS becomes viable.

[FridgeFreezer]

The later Thor has got to be preferable for the extra torques, although you can of course swap top ends if you can find the bits. Both mine are non-thor and I can't really complain about the available grunt

I would imagine it's not an easy prospect just trying to remove the ECU & associated wiring intact from a P38 without a lot of work.

[Hulliemam]

I did some research on the Thor manifold/management a while ago. Maby this helps you out a bit.

If you want to run the Thor system in a donor car, you have the issue of the immobiliser, and key with transponder/receiver.

It has been done before, only its not easy.

Some Thor vs gems facts:

Fuel pressure on Thor is 3.5 bar, gems 2.5 bar.

Thor does not have a return, and the pressure is regulated at the fuel pump in the tank. Gems does have a return so its easier wen running MS.

The Thor cooling connections are a bit different to older style inlet manifolds (nige can sort that out, he has the conversion bits ready for sale)

And if you pick a 4.6, the exhaust manifolds does not like water and are known for cracking.

I am sure I forget something but this is what I red online

[dangerous doug]

If your converting to Thor, save your self a headache and a bit of work and get the rocker covers with it.

Niges kit is spot on. I felt the FPR bracket needed turning around but that was personal preference and aside from that evereything bolted on a fit perfectly. On the face of it it's a lot of money but during the install and the long run you won't regret it.

3.9 serp, Thor top end and Niges kit.

[garrycol]

4.6 and 4.0 blocks are the same except - at manufacture the blocks received one of three grades based on QC tests - the lower grade went into the 4.0, the highest grade went into the 4.6 and the middle grade could go into either.

I am doing exactly what you are suggesting at the moment - putting in a Thor into a stand alone situation - I am going MS3 but not sure it is the right way to go but should be OK.

I did consider, and it it might be better if you just want an engine to run with no tinkering is to get the Motronic ECU modified by Mark Adams at Tornado systems - if you have all the Thor bits it will be cheaper than MS3 but you will not be able to change the map.

Garry

[d-9]

get the Motronic ECU modified by Mark Adams at Tornado systems - if you have all the Thor bits it will be cheaper than MS3 but you will not be able to change the map.

Garry

Thor runs motronic? Any ideas which version?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hiya

Yes a Thor or GEMS ECU can be hacked to run.

Few things

Looms are not excatly the finest qulaity, and suffer from age too lol

The amount of hacking about is significant, and you will have absolutely no idea whatsoever whats been done.

If you have any problems therefore you will have no idea where to start or how

if the ECU fails / its old / they do / then you have to get another ECU and rehacked.

MS - yes more money but none of the above apply

Thors are great for Low down power.

Buy an engine if you can where you can get it up to temp and listen to it, better still take a rocker cover off pale brown good dark brown ok Blacl and stiky wear black cornflakes look run aweay

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

The fuel pressure/return thing is easily sorted with an external regulator, I wouldn't consider it an issue.

[daslandroverman]

Had a look at this site:

http://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/ms_faq.php

This would give the impression the 4.0 had less issues with slipped liners than the 4.6 engines? I thought the issue was block tooling wearing out and the increase in bore to reach the 94mm bore used in 3.9/4.0/4.6? Guess it could be purely the mapping on the 4.6s...

So if Thor it looks like you'd have to budget for MS from the start?

The block castings were getting a bit ropey by the mid 90's, and depending on how the casting came out they could end up with as little as 0.5mm of cylinder wall material between the liner and the water jacket, hence why they cracked.

From my understanding the production blocks were graded in terms of quality.

At the time the best ones were used for TVR, Morgan, Westfield etc engines, with any left over joining the lower grade ones for use as Land Rover engines.

The 4.6's were more prone as they were more likely to be used for towing, along with having more available torque the gearbox was more prone to holding a gear and labouring the engine rather than changing down as the 4 litre engines would do.

That coupled with the lean mapping for emissions reasons gives a fairly clear picture as to the why.

Later engines were reworked to utilise the Cosworth developed 'coscast' casting systems which greatly improved the quality of the block castings, and later ones seem not to have the issues.

A bit of trivia anyways.

[elbekko]

Thor runs motronic? Any ideas which version?

5.2.1