Rear seat legalities

[Copey89]

My defender currently only has the 3 front seats, I would like to stick a couple of inward facing seats in the back, I know that I will need to add in supports as the floor won't be strong enough, seat belts etc. But can I legally mount inward facing seats? I would guess so seeing as they come with bench seats? The vehicle in question is a 1988, thank you for any help and advice

[Arjan]

What Vehicle ?

What Country ?

Will your insurance company cover you ?

Not an easy answer.

[Copey89]

Sorry, defender 110 and I am in the UK, I can get the log book changed and my insurance are alright with the extra seats

[miketomcat]

You can't put children in side facing seats under a certain age/height in the UK. That age of truck it may not need seatbelts in the back (can't remember the year they became law) though I'm not sure how the law sits on retro fit.

Mike

[Chicken Drumstick]

Unless there is something on your log book now, then I wouldn't change anything on it. I know people on the internet always say about the number of seats listed on a logbook. But I've checked loads of logbooks and haven't yet seen one listing number of seats.

Although obviously yours might be different.

There is no need to strengthen the floor, the seats should just clip and bolt in. Although there are two main types, bench seats and folding single seats.

Not sure on seat belts, you'll need to check that one. I have a feeling the law is something along the lines of if they are fitted they should be used, if they aren't fitted then not needed. But you'll want to clarify.

EDIT: The DfT letter seems to answer this.

If it was available new with side facing seats, then it will be perfectly legal to fit them afterwards.

As for riding in the back, I've spoken to the DVLA/VOSA and the DfT on this. This is the reply I got from the DfT:

Thank you for your enquiry about your Landrover.

For adults in the front and rear, seat belts must be used if available.

For children:-

in the front: all those up to 135cms in height (or 12 years or over, whichever comes first) must use the correct child seat/booster for their weight with no exceptions. If over 135cm or 12 years and above, they are treated for the purposes of this legislation as adults;

in the rear: where seat belts are fitted, than the same rules as for front seats apply but there are a few exceptions. One of those says that if belts are not fitted in the rear, then those 3 years and above may travel unrestrained. However, those under 3 years cannot travel – they must always use the correct baby/child seat for their weight in the front or rear.

Beware of sideways facing seats: there is no legal requirement for seat belts to be fitted in sideways facing seats – in an impact, anyone using a belt in a sideways facing seat is at increased risk of serious injury. But if seat belts are installed then they must be used by adults.

Please note especially that where seat belts are fitted, children who are legally required to use baby/child seats/boosters cannot travel in sideways facing seats because baby/child seats/boosters legally cannot be used in sideways facing seats. This does not mean that children may use an adult belt instead in these seats – it means that they cannot travel at all in sideways facing seats where belts are fitted. That may have an effect on carrying capacity. If extra seat belts are installed in the rear in order to carry children, they should be installed on forward or rearward facing seats – baby/child seats/boosters can be used in forward and rearward facing seats.

Nothing in seat belt wearing legislation prevents the carrying of adults in seats that do not have seat belts installed – even if other seats in the rear have belts fitted. It goes without saying however those seats with seat belts should be used first.

Remember that the police can take action if, in the judgement of an officer, passengers are being carried where “the manner in which they are carried is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person”. The penalties for this offence are notably higher than for a seat belt wearing offence.

[Happyoldgit]

While it was ok to drill the wheel arches and bolt in a couple of bench frames and pop in a couple of upholstered bases and rig up some belts years ago with the state of traffic now I'm not sure I'd be quite so keen on having children riding about in the back of a Defender like that these highly litigious days.

[Snagger]

While it was ok to drill the wheel arches and bolt in a couple of bench frames and pop in a couple of upholstered bases and rig up some belts years ago with the state of traffic now I'm not sure I'd be quite so keen on having children riding about in the back of a Defender like that these highly litigious days.

The quote from above says that if your kids are less than 12 and under 135cm, they cannot under any circumstance use sideways facing seats - they must be in forward facing seats with a booster and full restraints.

[Chicken Drumstick]

The quote from above says that if your kids are less than 12 and under 135cm, they cannot under any circumstance use sideways facing seats - they must be in forward facing seats with a booster and full restraints.

It doesn't say that.

It says clearly that children over 3 year can use side facing rear seats, so long as there is no seat belt present.

If a belt is present then it must be used, but children under 12 years/135cm must used a booster/child seat. Which legally cannot be used in a side facing seat. Therefore "only" if belts are present is there a restriction to under 12's/135cm tall using side facing seats.

[Chicken Drumstick]

While it was ok to drill the wheel arches and bolt in a couple of bench frames and pop in a couple of upholstered bases and rig up some belts years ago with the state of traffic now I'm not sure I'd be quite so keen on having children riding about in the back of a Defender like that these highly litigious days.

I sort of agree, but if you aren't going massive differences and you aren't rushing about in 80mph dual carriage way traffic, then I suspect it's not really an issue.

And I'm not sure you even need cushioned seats to count, sitting on the metal is just as legal and valid.

[Snagger]

It doesn't say that.

It says clearly that children over 3 year can use side facing rear seats, so long as there is no seat belt present.

If a belt is present then it must be used, but children under 12 years/135cm must used a booster/child seat. Which legally cannot be used in a side facing seat. Therefore "only" if belts are present is there a restriction to under 12's/135cm tall using side facing seats

True, but you may run into C&U regulation problems on various age vehicles if you fit rear seats without belts, even sideways facing - Defenders had lap belts on the sideways seats for a long time, albeit introduced a while after belts on forward facing rear seats. I'm confident a 1988 would have to be fitted with belts for forward facing seats (though not positive). For sideways facing I'd have to look up the regs somewhere as I really don't know. But as you said, it would be very unwise to have young kids on such benches in this day and age.

[reb78]

My 1989 110 CSW had side facing seats from the factory but no belts if thats any help... (when mum owned it, she had these fitted in the mid '90s as she thought it was the best thing to do - not knowing it was probably worse!)

[Copey89]

Thanks for that info Chicken Drumstick! Exactly what I needed to know, and thank you everyone else for the advice, the seats will be used for adults and older kids, so I will probably fit seat belts too, in all honesty they won't be used a massive amount, but it's just nice to have the option if I can legally, thanks again!