De Ranged

Thanks for that, you realise you answered the next question I was going to ask, lol... why the trucks with the higher AS% rear up, I see it now.... indirectly it is caused by high AS% but not by the AS, the easiest way to get higher AS is to angle the links up to chassis, this angle is making it more suseptable to the jacking Oh and trust me it doesn't matter how steep they are still accelerating lol, 400+hp in a mid engine, low CoG buggies that weigh less than a ton! Im still curious about what causes hop, when I was in the drag scene you could tune the car to hop or the other extreme reer up and the idea was to get it in the middle where it launched My idea was the high AS loaded up the tyres to the point it was greater than the grip of the tyre.... as the tyre slips it looses the torque that is forcing the rear up so the weight transfer from the acceleration causes the back to drop... as the back drops the geometry improved on the links allowing tyre to grab again... up it goes and we have a cycle...... but lol from what I understand now the bit about grabbing traction again doesn't work... so please explain I agree with the low roll axis angle, but I try to get the roll centre height as high as I can without any silly issues... generally at or just below tyre height is where I aim.... Looking forward to your next bit Hey O Teunico sorry for taking over your thread lol

I've found this a while back http://www.classicindustries.com/mopar/parts/re1026.html I've never used it, but I have used alot of the POR15 products and they are very good

15yrs of logging I found those little red green red dial gauges are not that accurate lol the amount that have failed test but show good, i carry 2 on my truck a small one in the cab and large on on the deck and the best fire fighting tool is there as well... a shovel, I have put out more equipment fires with the shovel than the dry powder ones, fuel fires are one that seem to beat the volume of dry powder yet a shovel I can always shovel more mud/dirt in there to smother it A cheap source of extinguishers is the testing guys, alot of companies have policies that a fail is a brand new replacement, they give them to the testers some of them fix em, charge em and then sell them on.... I got two of the big 5 or 8 kg ones, that look like new for the price of a brand new 2.5kg one

Just from a theoretical point of view, if your calculating 4wd AS/AD wouldnt the bias be based on sprung weights and % of total .... I say this because for most terrain we are in grip is better due to load so there for your front axle in a "normal" 4wd will have more grip than the rear This brings up the question of weight balance but that is a whole different subject lol but very important! John could you please expain how too much AS% causes hop I have issues with High AS%, I have watched very similar trucks/buggies perform on the same obstacles and the ones with higher AS% bounced around on steep climbs... worst case it will lift the nose off the hill.... I have always felt it was because the base line was gravity and the trucks wb etc got shorter, I'm inclined to believe john that I'm wrong..... if this is the case then what is causing this I know part of it will be due to the AS transfer of weight to the links and not the springs As your AS% goes up more of the weight transferred onto the axle from acceleration is transferred down the links instead of back on the body and down through the springs to the axle..... that means this weight is unsprung a bad thing if you still want your suspension to work lets use my Lada as an example (since I know the figures for it) A couple of things first the rear springs are liner rate @ 26kg per cm of travel, now I have calculated the AS% at rest at near to 60%but for this example I'll cheat and say its 50% my sprung mass is 560kg, unsprung is unknown but I'll say 400kg (200kg per axle) and I have a 60/40% weight bias to the front Now if I was to use a zip tie on my shock spear so I can work out the amount of weight transfer to the rear of the axle under acceleration, I accelerate on a level road for a base line.... with 3 cm of sqaut (zip tie has moved 3 cm down shaft) Now for some math 3 cm x 52 kg (there are two springs) = 156kgs of weight transfer onto the springs.... now because half (remember the AS% is 50) has gone to the axle via the links so your rear axle has increased in weight to 356kgs lets consider the same truck but with 100%AS the rear axle now has a mass of 512kgs This is all good till you are going forward and trying to keep your axle tracking, remember we arn't on a nice smooth drag strip... we are accelerating across ruts roots ditches bogs etc How well your wheel stays in contact with all this is based on how well the springs and shocks can keep it down there now if you consider your sprung to unsprung ratio as an indicator of how well this is going At 50% AS Back sprung weight is 40% of my 560kgs = 224kg + that from weight transfer 156kg / unsprung axle 200kg + weight transfer 156kg So we end up with 380kg trying to control 356kg of axle At 100% AS You have 224kg of body etc trying to control 512kg worth of axle..... Now as a small kid at school getting in fights with the first 15 I very quickly learned if they are bigger than me.... I cant make them do what I want! lol big bully's aside that axle isnt going to track into the terrain as well as the truck with less AS Now I can see this being more and more of an issue on a hill because as you poke the nose up a hill the rear links are tilting up more carrying more and more weight straight to the rear axle before you add acceleration this helps with grip but not with suspension performance

Thirty yrs for vintage in nz The work doesnt concern me much, I love the journey of building a toy lol I tend to look after them a bit more if Ive made that investment it just feels a little funny to be pulling a V8 for a tittle diesel I'd feel happer doing that to an old holden straight 6 or old school rover motor And I know my nature I'm too tight to run an 8 for a daily lol Been thinking that maybe I do both fix up the 110 and use it as a daily till I get the other toy done lol

Had an add on our version of ebay for a while for a long wheel base series Plan was daily come tow wagon camper, Series 2, 3 door... from the old man in southland $1000 to get it up here or a local one thats in better condition dads just needs a new bulkhead which I can get for a favor Strip it down and rebuild it from the chassis up, fit the Range Rover rear axle in my toy to it (with an ARB), modify the front axle to disk brake and wider to match the rear, power steering Fit the TD27ti from my stolen mistral Add another door on passenger side and comfort improvements like adjustable seats, aircon, soundproofing etc The idea is vintage old school cool and rego :wink: but with modern diesel and comforts Now just got interesting as Ive been offered a dereged 87 110 v8 defender that looks to be in good order for $1500ono hmmm better ride etc but no vintage reg reg is a 5th of normal

There is something else to consider to do with weight distribution... the more weight on the tyres the more grip.... on most 4wd's that weight is 75-60% front axle, as you accelerate some of the weight moves from front to back There is a down side to moving weight back.... when your on a hill with good grip you start lifting the front.... there has been alot of guys play with weight balance here in the trials scene.... for a north south motor box combo, crank pulley sitting on the front axle centre line or just behind, for an east west combo from a front wheel drive because they are a more compact weight they can mount further back from around 6" off the firewall forward from my truck following the rules that ends up with around 65-50%.... a more even split gives you better sidling control, truck doesn't flop as your uphill wheels follow the terrain, but for climbs you still want nose forward weight There are those that buck the trend with rear mounts, but if you watch they cant attack the steep climbs they have to use momentum not HP and are stuffed on power on off climbs like terraced or platform climbs But did you notice johns reply to us all, with a 4wd the front axle "anti-lift" so the high anti dive front axle does pull down .....

Thanks John, The clips work on a daily bandwidth limit for your account.... maybe this is the reason you couldnt see them lol now Ive got more questions... all good I'll save em up, I'm still stuggling with your last post in the other thread, not your explanation just my head is.... foggy from the pain killers I live on

people forget about the front end, as you get mass transfer from acceleration remember your front is lighter so the springs can push it up ... my old rangie was a bugger for this people read way to much into AS in my opinion, remember that AS is the % of mass transfer from acceleration that the links get, the whole amount still ends up on the wheels in the end, because the % that the springs get still pushes down.... the bonus from a high AS is faster transfer of this weight to the tyres so better grip The catch for use compared to dragsters is we have way more travel in our suspension, and the bit most forget is we drive on hills.... I know this sounds obvious but this moves the CoG, WB and the angle of our links..... now add that with what happens when you loose grip the back end lift from lots of AS is gone, now when your on a hill that can get scary..... most of us have seen the SWB hop when on a steep climb I see AS score as more of a balance to make a stable truck not a super take off truck The more I think about it, the more I feel radius arm style links work differently.... because the link is fixed to the axle tube there is no push pull action going on Ive been racking my brains trying to remember if I have ever seen a radius arm truck hop.... but I cant, I mean I dont think Ive ever seen one hop I remember the budget guys yrs ago in street drags building ladder bar rear suspensions for more AS (a radius arm) but we went four link for the tuneability, I know the ladder bar cars could be setup to hop but its left me wondering if there hop threshold is a higher AS This is one of my questions for John when he has finished his explanation

Thanks for those.... that climbs very well, it almost looked like it was sqauting under power, hard to tell my pc isnt happy with multimedia currently running in safe mode lol thanks for the comparison vid of the 80series, notice on the second steep climb how it sort of bounced, shame the camera wasnt side on as I bet we would have seen the rear suspension bouncing up and down....... this is what I would have expected from yours, yet yours was nice and smooth even when you broke traction at the top it didnt seem to bounce hmmm I know this is going to sound a bit... silly but I'm starting to think radius arm suspension might react differently Could you get some more vid but side on, and try it with different speeds on the same hill eg crawling vs hp

hmmm for a DIY there is a bit of paid machine work to cut a spline adapter, the cheaper option would be to get a set of fine spline 40 series cruiser axles and cut the drive flanges and cut spines to fit the rover drive flanges this would be alot cheaper

lol you got me there..... I use a version of Triaiged Calculator, my training is computers, yrs ago I got a early copy of it and pulled it apart to work out how he got his figures, I then spent alot of time on google confirming his calculation ... my original copy didnt use an unsprung weight so it worked off the total CoG My copy V3.0 only adjusts for rear unsprung weight.... I use the two cells as total weight and unsprung weight, also mine is setup for metric down to the mm so the conversion is one decimal place My result is 118% near enough to not mater I'll confess I havent been into the newer version to see how the new unsuspended CoG is calculated, I've been curios, given the original was just based off total CoG height and this was from published texts... I can understand that since the Unsprung weight doesnt effect the reactions happening a more accurate figure can be got by removing them.... what has always been in the back of my mind is what if the original calculation was based off results that didnt differentiate for sprung and unsprung then removing the unsprung bias's the result.... I just went with the fact that the times Ive chatted with Triaged he came across as somebody who wouldnt fall for a simple mistake like this

Thank you..... I understand something about the combination of the links and quite often use the top link to tune my AS% when packaging wants to place the lower links in a bad position I'm guessing the rest of your answer is going to explain why the position of the instant centre is more important to those that want grip.......

Thank you for that, if your not a touch typest that is alot of time in that post, I really appreciate that If you dont mind answering a few questions In simple terms Anti Sqaut is your drive axle pushing forward through the links to the body, (and if there is angle up in the links... forcing the body upward ).... and how much this counters the change in mass due to acceleration So this means the the upward force is at the point the links attatch to the chassis..... Some thing I've wondered is when you have a multi link setup anti-squat is calculated by the instant centre this bit I understand but the way I see it the links don't go all the way to IC, say they are short.... since they are further away from the CoG shouldnt they lift the rear easier.... same as using a power bar on a stubborn bolt..... except the longer distance from the CoG to the chassis mount is the lever I understand there are other issues with short links but I like to understand all things so I can make an educated decision Cheers Reece

No problems. the back is the funky one as far as engineering, Ive had to buy a cheap grinder for the lath to work on the 40 series long side, then the short side needs to be cut and splined

So did I.... thats why I did it, but that is still another inch taller tyres to get that, and my local club has tyre size limits so this is the only way to beat it

Hey just a random thought but land rover owners might actually be more environmentally friendly than say the hybrid crowd Just something I was thinking about how long do we keep a landy..... do we throw it away after say 5yrs to buy the next great environmentally friendly car surly the inefficient fuel consumption of a landrover is nothing on the carbon foot print of a new car or 3 given how long some hang onto old landy's lol and all they save with there attitude is another litre or two a 100 k's Shame there arnt studies on this..... would be nice to hit the self righteous with a study that they were worse than us lol

The top one on the bench (combo of toyota bits) is a CAD design of mine, was a bugger developing up the base lol, no X rays but I'm guessing you noticed the balls on the ends are off centre.... I moved the axle tubes up till there was just 5mm between the inside wall and the drive axle... the lower diff pumpkin is 10mm thick with 3mm clearance to the ring gear Shaving a toyota axle you gain about 19mm with 10mm plate The range rover axle above turned out to fit resumbly tight to the crown wheel I only gained 11-12mm, same deal 10mm plate and 3mm of clearance to the crown wheel, you could gain more if you droped to 6mm..... When you make the replacement plates make them a snug fit, so when you weld there is less contraction from your welds, Ive found the average movement due to this is 1-1.5 degree of warpage on the hilux housings. I now have special jigs that I chain the housings onto before I weld to limit the warpage and I make jigs out of dead diffs so I know placement of the crown wheel, they also have bushes fitted into the bearing mounts so I can slide a bar in to measure alignment and straighten the housings

There is a bit you can visually check to compare intercoolers, first the core, number and size of the runners, this is a double edged sword lots of runners, means you get alot of surface area to cool, smaller tubes means better cooling but slower air movement (restriction) bigger tubes less restriction but also less cooling Cooling fins or turbulators, more is good as its more surface area to transfer the heat to the outside air but the slower the outside air can move through the intercooler, a fan and good ducting will help this, mud or anything that blocks them is bad, good intercoolers will have internal turbulators as well Thickness of the core, thin is good if you can get a large surface area but if your hard on space a second best is thickness, the reason thicker doesnt work as well as area, is as the outside area travels through it takes heat from the intercooler now with a thick intercooler the front adds its bit of heat so when its in the thicker section its already warmer so cant take as much heat from that section Looking at your outside, are the runners rounded off at the ends or sharpe sqaure edges, rounded corners are better as they cause less drag to the outside air As for what you can see in the top tank, if its a top tank does it have baffles to help spread the flow. Tank design makes a difference too, if the air flow has to make lots of hard turns as it flows in and out this will create turbulence and reduce flow, flairs, trumpets etc are way better than tubes that just butt up against the tank If you can see into the top of the core in the tank, do the runners come up like in the old school copper radiators this is the worst type this is called extruded and causes turbulence at the mouth of the runners, better are flush ones called plate core they flow better, and the best type and as far as I know only available on after-market intercoolers is bell-mouthed, they have a half round shape either side of the runners this works the same as an air intake trumpet and can get as much as 3% improvement in air flow

Look closely lol This is the front axle for my Slll toy when I get around to it, just got to make a rear to match and finish the motor auto swop, front suspension etc lol I have between 19 - 50mm of extra clearance over a standard hilux axle and +75mm ish wider by using a combination of hilux and cruiser inner axles

No.... your forgetting about the inertial weight transfer when you brake, so if your front links were behind the CoG then under brakes this moves further forward due to inertia this will load up the front springs and the links will lift the back of the truck Yes but I see a couple of things here that muddy the waters lol First you have a long (very long link to get infront of CoG) longer links dont ramp the rate of AS% as much as they extend... Now this is where Im guessing, I just havent found any books or anybody who can state this but I reckon the bounce you get (hopping) is due to this ramping rate as you get torque the axle screws its self under the truck extending the links AS% increases due to extra angle, this continues till you either run out of travel or grip.... this removes the torque holding the axle there on extended suspension, gravity pulles the back down again.... tyres can get grip again away we go again...... this bouncing is what tips trucks over The other thing is as you tilt up more and more weight goes onto the rear links less on the springs.... think of it like a vector (probably using this term the wrong way again lol) if the spring is one side of the vector the link is the other... now as you tilt truck the weight moves onto the link from the spring your back will move out, due to the spring pushing it out Bugger lol I had a thought I was going to post up about link length, but..... arghhh I really hate this, buggered if I know why people become junkies this is so frustrating I just can't hold thoughts in my head or follow them through lol

Based off the idea on the AS% thread that high AD% causes a downward force on the front end under acceleration...I dont know if I agree with it as just a result of high AD%, but I think that you could get this effect with a radius arm style of suspension by the nature of the links being attached to the axle housing so it transfers the torque into the housing The reason I dont agree with this being just a measure of AD% is the instant centre... the pivot point the links pivot on now if this was just a case of high AD% then this would be the point that the force would pull the body down, now in the case of a multi link suspension that would mean your pulling force is at the back end, or beyond Something else to think about is this force is torque reacting on a lever, the link.... the longer the link the more the force is going to dissipate before it can pull down the body.... the reverse of using a bar on a wrench Radius arm style had the instant centre at the chassis mount, very short All of the above being correct then I would look at a shorter front end to make more of this Now there is a catch since your links come to the same point (front, rear) and your radius arm style rear your AS% will be pushing up at the same point lol ..... I had never thought of this till now, I wonder how this would effect my link rear end lol too late for this thought tonight

Yay a day off .... where my head is in a good enough space that I can think lol blastard painkillers Thank you for that.... I would never have guessed that high.... there is my guess at half that lol, I'm really starting to appreciate the gain in AS% with radius arm style suspension .... I only really considered them as something that came factory because they are cheap to make so were a good budget option for the makers and never considered them due to the limited flex Hmmm and it climbs well... I could see the front end doing that pull down thing discussed in the AS% thread.... the back tho, this high a score should have it lifting some on acceleration with good grip, you don't happen to have any video of it in action Now if this was a multi link suspension like say dual triangulated four link I'd expect this high a score to be moving the back end up on the flat, on rutted climbs where the wheels have to track to keep grip it would spin up at some point, and a steep good grip climb will try and lift the front wheels off (seen a dramatic example of the last one, a truck with a similar AS% climbing a very steep 4m high little gully... the rear lifted the front and the driver didnt back off, the back drove up under the front wheels causing the truck to peiete off the top and flip over backwards and hit the ground at the bottom on the front axle... bye bye front links steering etc lol Hmmm just had an interesting thought, one of the odd standout things about radius arm suspension is the instant centre is at the chassis end of the link where it bolts to the chassis, with multi link this is closer to the opposite axle or past it.... this is something Ive never really paid too much attention too so long as it was within kuwi of the other axle..... now the instant centre is the pivot point where the arm that your links are, is pivoting Dammit..... I can't quite join the dots on this in my head...... I think this could be why the radius arm style suspension works..... for every force you have a counter force.... my thought is the radius arm instant centre is there at the chassis mount, so is focused at that point.... but a multi link is focused further out at the other end of the truck or past it Dammit the painkillers have started to work and I cant see how the effects work through....arghh lol sorry

No these arnt issues if your scrub radius is small.... you need that "beef" when you run oversized tyres with offset for more width this increases the scrub radius which means more leverage on the steering system I'm with bill on this, steering linkages down low is just lazy and it was one of the things I wanted to change with mine Nice idea for the tie-rod but that is something we arnt allowed on road here lol, and for offroad na lol it'll still get caught... notice all the missing paint on the underside of the axle higher than where the new tie rod is....

sounds like a good portion of these mods are what I'm planing on doing to the next one .... Sll 109 tow/camper wagon DD Nissan TD27 Ti from a Terrano ll with auto range rover rear axle from my toy truck (shaved n braced) Disk brake front end on series axle Power steering extra door on passanger side New front seats from a holden callia sound proofing carpet and insulation New dash and console extra fuel tank draws and fold out bed water tank electric windows etc not planing on starting it till after back opp