DEFENDER 200tdi turbo failure

[Landy1985]

Hello All,

Recently I have joined the 200tdi club after converting from my 2.25 10J, but with only 200 miles under my belt the turbo has blown today ☹️! It was sounding funny so stopped and oil was pouring out from the air box. Checked oil straight after the event and seemed that it was empty;  went to get some oil and topped it up and started and tried to crawl back very slowly, although it was chucking out a lot of blue smoke. Stopped a couple of times and the oil level was fine. At the final hill I had a short engine run away which filled the sky a bit with smoke! I got towed home and checked the oil and level was still ok. It started and although rough it drove onto the drive. Removing the air filter to examine the turbo there is now play in the turbine, however at the moment it looks like everything is in one piece.  Although it started and oil level was ok I am now worried that the overrun has damaged the engine. What checks would be recommended to evaluate whether I’ve caused any significant damage?

Thank you for any hints.

Cheers James

 

[ballcock]

It sounds like the seals have gone in the turbo and you may be lucky it has done no damage if it didn't rev too high or for too long. I would check for water in the oil and that your expansion tank level hasn't dropped. remove the air intake pipe off the inlet manifold and turbo. and start the engine and listen for any abnormal noises or smoking. your inlet pipework will need cleaning out and a replacement or repaired turbo. If you add your location some one local may be able to help better.

[steve b]

Whilst it could be turbo seals , I'm inclined towards excessive crankcase breather pressure , can you post up pics of the installation - breather pipe run , air filter box / turbo / intercooler / intake manifold ?

When it self fuelled did you de-clutch so it revved excessively ( if so how did it slow down ?) or did you stall it on the brakes in gear ?

Is it a defender turbo position or Disco ?  Is the turbo oil drain clear and un-kinked ?

cheers

Steve b

[Landy1985]

Thank you for the comments. 

I can confirm that the engine it a defender 200 tdi so top mounted turbo.  See attached a picture of the set up running (pulled air box off as leaking oil but crankcase pipe feeds into main body of the cartridge type filter housing).

 Interesting comment about excessive crankcase breather pressure; when it first happened I removed the crankcase pressure pipe and started it up and visually you could see oil droplets in the air flow but I do not know if this is normal.  If there is excessive crankcase pressure what would be the potential root causes?

The engine overrun happened very quickly, I did de-clutch and turned off the ignition however did not react to stall the engine, but it stopped on its own after about 5-7 seconds (assumed that it just limited to the oil in the intake). I’m hoping that as it started again to pull on to the drive that is a good sign that I have not done too much damage!

I am going to explore further today, but the oil drain does not appear to be kinked. 

In terms of turbo replacements, I have seen that you can buy just an internal cartridge, has anyone had any experience swapping the main components and do you require any specialist tools?

Thank you

 

[western]

Also examine all the flexible elbow joints, my turbo (same engine) did a similar thing back a while ago, only thing I found was a split in one elbow to the compressor housing inlet, I repaired it & all returned to normal, but I didn't trust the turbo anymore so had a new cartridge fitted by a local engine rebuilders. 

[ballcock]

Excessive crankcase pressure is normally caused by piston ring bypass, worn bores, damaged rings. Lift the oil filler cap off when running and see whether it's chuffing like a steam engine. The vent pipe to inlet does contain small quantities of oil, if the oil trap needs replacing or cleaning this increases the amount.

[steve b]

Head gasket leaking can also cause pressure . My reasoning is if it was the turbo seals the oil would be between the turbo and the inlet manifold , not in the air box .

cheers

Steve b

[Lightning]

The engine should be fine after the short runaway.

This guy was not so lucky!

But it shows how long the engine will actually hold together and not blow up.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Lightning

[jjk76]

8 hours ago, Landy1985 said:

 

"In terms of turbo replacements, I have seen that you can buy just an internal cartridge, has anyone had any experience swapping the main components and do you require any specialist tools?"

1

 

I replaced the internal cartridge on my turbo after it leaked just like yours I also had a fair bit of play in the spindle so thought I had nothing to lose in trying one.

 had no issues at all or special tools to swap it out, the only slight issue I had was getting to bolts undone on the housing as there isn't a huge amount of room in there and I was paranoid that using an open-ended spanner would round off the bolts as they were in there pretty tight. In the end, I soaked them in penetrating oil and resorted to a heat gun to get them shifted and all was well. Since re-installation, it has been perfect, couldn't be happie3r and saved myself a fortune. 

 

I used these guys: 

https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/prod_5497835-Uprated-HYBRID-Stage-1-Turbo-CHRA-Core-465171-465175-Land-Rover-Defender-Discovery-200tdi-Turbocharger-Cartridge.html

[Landy1985]

On 12/16/2018 at 5:28 PM, jjk76 said:

 

I replaced the internal cartridge on my turbo after it leaked just like yours I also had a fair bit of play in the spindle so thought I had nothing to lose in trying one.

 had no issues at all or special tools to swap it out, the only slight issue I had was getting to bolts undone on the housing as there isn't a huge amount of room in there and I was paranoid that using an open-ended spanner would round off the bolts as they were in there pretty tight. In the end, I soaked them in penetrating oil and resorted to a heat gun to get them shifted and all was well. Since re-installation, it has been perfect, couldn't be happie3r and saved myself a fortune. 

 

I used these guys: 

https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/prod_5497835-Uprated-HYBRID-Stage-1-Turbo-CHRA-Core-465171-465175-Land-Rover-Defender-Discovery-200tdi-Turbocharger-Cartridge.html

Hi,

I managed to get the turbo off today and eventually got all the bolts undone, but do you have any advice how to separate the turbo assembly?

[Landy1985]

As it is finally stopped raining I started exploring the damage from the weekend. Removing the turbo pipes, the engine started first time and actually it sounded OK (no unusual rattles which was reassuring).  The water level had not dropped so do not think the head gasket has gone. I’m going to replace the crankcase breather vent trap as do not know when it was last changed. Next step is trying to get the turbo apart....

[Tanuki]

Whatever you do, check the oil-drain-pipe from the turbo to the sump. I've seen a couple of well-used TDIs where this pipe has been full of clag and carbonised/tarry oil-sludge to the point where it would have been impeding the free drainage of oil from the turbo back to the sump.

If the oil can't drain freely, it seeks the next-easiest path - through the turbo seals to freedom!

A new turbo-to-sump pipe is a cheap investment to make sure you don't blow another set of seals.

[steve b]

...the HG can blow from combustion to crankcase without affecting the water jacket , also check the drain now it's disconnected , Tanuki makes a very valid point .

let's hope you get to the root cause

cheers

Steve b  

[Simon Smith]

In my opinion, if most of the oil was in the air filter then she's breathing too much, If it's in the turbo and intercooler but not the air filter then it's the turbo or the oil drain. I would do a leakdown or compression test first if it's breathing excessively.

The breather valve is just an empty plastic box with a spring and diaphragm in the top, they do let a little oil past but not enough to worry about, I swapped mine for a shiny Allisport one and have to say it doesn't seem to let any oil through at all.

[Landy1985]

Hello,

Thank you all for your comments. I finally found the inclination to tear down the Landy this weekend! On disassembly of the push rods I noticed that #8 was discoloured; on the removal of the head, the gasket had blown on cylinder #4 to the push rod chamber (see photo).  

This explains the pressurisation of the sump and increased breathing issue and pushing the oil out into the air box.  As the gasket did not go in the water jacket and the head has not got hot, what is the general opinion whether it is necessary to get the head skimmed?

Additionally I noticed that there is some pitting and wear damage to a varied degree in the rocker housings (see photos).  Is this a common observation for the 200tdi? 

Thanks

[Maverik]

The fretting in the last picture is quite common, I had this on the head of my Def 200tdi, get some fine emery paper and polish the seat to make sure there's no high points.

There is a LR procedure for checking head warpage, using a flat edge and some feeler gauges and you can get a decent idea if its within tolerance. 

When I did my headgasket last year I sent the head away for a skim and re-furb more for good order as I hadn't a clue when it was last looked at.

[Snagger]

As long as the damage to the rocker shaft seat is pitting and not raised, I wouldn't worry about it, but do check the shaft for any burrs that could have caused it.

As for the head face, check carefully for gas erosion where the gasket failed - if the surface isn't completely flat, then further leaks will occur and you'll be back to the same problem.  LR say that the heads can't be skimmed.  In practice, they can, but very little, or the pistons will contact the valves.  Much more than a "deep polish" would require the seats to be reground deeper to ensure valve clearance.  Not a great option, but as new heads are no longer available, it is an option if you can't get a decent replacement.