New year, new winch mod.

[dollythelw]

Thank you for bringing up Argyle

I will go through team by team.....

The winners Pete Whitman and Byrn Hemming...

Petes suffered a damaged rear motor drive gear

Second place, Justin Dean and Willie Davenhill

Justin Dean the drum split due to a faulty tig weld on the drum, purely unfortunate.

Third place

Myself and Paul Wightman

Both using converted top housing 8274's, first time anyone in the uk had used 24volts through 12volts competitively. Both winches faultless first day apart from battery (Lack of) problems towards the end.

Day two, The upper gearbox gears on my own winch destroyed themselves at lunchtime

3 for 3 then... and in only 2 days? its not a knock - stuff happens but its hardly a glowing debute

5 Pillars - apologies for the date confusion - yep, December 2005, a car costing peanuts with absolutely no extreme stuff whupped everyone

so the "flicking" issue I assume is merely inertial load D90SV? are you employing a different gearset to negate this? I would assume that regardless of stiffer casting there is a maximum load that gearset will operate at?

Im tried re-reading the reply but I seemed to have missed the bit where you answered the lifespan and testing question?

thanks for being so patient

Ian - my limited knowledge of the physics would suggest that unbalanced motors do not provide true load sharing as one motor is effectively carrying the other, this manifests itself in reduced lifespan, at least that what happens with traction motors employed on forklifts, downhole tractors, UAVs, UUVs etc but this probably isnt the case with winches...? part of the day job involves high accuracy DC power supplies at work for everything from bias grids to MRI scanners, plus the fun stuff like rail guns, ion drive motors, weapon systems etc - hence my curiosity

Daan, no recovery crew, no support crew, no X men and no second chance, its a closed military area so theres not even any locals invite only and the only thing other than the cars racing is a fuel bowser. 1 week, 1000kms - I think its your kinda game

[Lewis]

<snip>

The Dutch team of RP and Jo Laeven both running twin 8274's unfortuantely retire early day one due to RP breaking a cam belt. RP recovered his vehicle as fair as the batteries would allow with no problems (Can't do that with Hydraulic) and Jo played the rest of the weekend with no problems.

<snip>

Can people please stop saying that hydraulic winches cannot be run with the engine off - It is a small matter to fit an electric pump in the system and then you can play for as long as the electric winches on battery power alone.

No offence intended to Jim - big respect to him for developing the 8274 - I recently came into the possession of 2 and i hate them both in standard form, they may well see some Gigglepin fettling in the future

part of the day job involves high accuracy DC power supplies at work for fun stuff like rail guns, ion drive motors, weapon systems etc - hence my curiosity

Mmmm Rail guns

Lewis

[D9OSV]

Hardly a glowing debute..........

Oh, I don't know top three places in the toughest event in the UK againist cars built for Ladoga

I'll take that.

Please remember those units where prototypes, and not the unit which is now available.

Here is some detail for you.....

All new twin-motor top housing for 8274 winch.

Gigglepin-designed top housing. Sand-cast and heat-treated LM25 aluminium. Does not flex, ensuring accurate, consistent gear meshing. It also has additional fixings to the lower casing. Designed to present a flat front to the winch to protect the motors from impact.

Cover plate machined from billet alloy, featuring tappings for venting and filling.

New wider one-piece intermediate gear set machined from billet EN36 and case hardened; reduced gear loading, reduced backlash (fewer gears, more precisely machined), stronger with better wear characteristics.

The intermediate shaft is supported by a large ball bearing at each end, rather than the original very small, single internal needle roller bearing between the gear and the shaft. Less drag means more power. Big bearings mean big reliability.

New input gears, again machined from billet EN36 and case-hardened, to provide drive from the motors to the intermediate gear set. These gears too are supported at both ends by large roller bearings, rather than relying on the motor to give the required support, again to ensure proper meshing, less drag, consistent reliability.

All gears have new, wider tooth profiles to reduce loading and stop tooth breakage.

The gear material specification has been raised from EN24 to EN36 for increased strength and reliability.

The gears are machined more accurately for accurate meshing, reduced backlash (helping withstand shock-loading) and reduced drag/mechanical losses.

I hope that helps to clear up a few things for you

As for life expectancy.......

The housing comes with a one year warranty.

As for the motors? the same applys.

I am of course very happy Jez, for you to purchase a unit if you feel our tests are insufficent, so that you can of course do your own

Kind regards

Jim

[D9OSV]

Can people please stop saying that hydraulic winches cannot be run with the engine off - It is a small matter to fit an electric pump in the system and then you can play for as long as the electric winches on battery power alone.

No offence intended to Jim - big respect to him for developing the 8274 - I recently came into the possession of 2 and i hate them both in standard form, they may well see some Gigglepin fettling in the future

Mmmm Rail guns

Lewis

No offence taken Lewis

I accept that whole heartedly, but have you tried it......? Gawd it's painful, even with a good quality pump.

Let me get one thing straight here, I like Hydraulics, I just prefer electrics for the appliactions for which we choose to use them

Jim

[Lewis]

I accept that whole heartedly, but have you tried it......? Gawd it's painful, even with a good quality pump.

Jim

Not yet, but i will do when I find one at the right price. Apart from the 8274's (which dont work, and have no rope - come on Ruftraks ) my only other winch is a vintage Warn M10000 which isnt even fitted to a vehicle

Lewis

[Portal Bob]

Not yet, but i will do when I find one at the right price. Apart from the 8274's (which dont work, and have no rope - come on Ruftraks ) my only other winch is a vintage Warn M10000 which isnt even fitted to a vehicle

Lewis

Hello,

Interesting little thread this!

No, I will not enter this particular debate as I know nothing!!!!

Merely here by invitation of Lewis - looking for cheap Plasma are we???

Always an avenue worth exploring.

Andy Thomlinson.

Ruftraks UK Limited.

[Shaun D]

Just a comment regarding load sharing with twin motors, series wound motors aren't constant speed units so as long as the units are of the same type and in similar condition as Jim says I don't see that there will be a problem.As I see it if one motor is say 5% faster than the other it would do maybe 5% more work (at worst) it would not carry nearly all the load as it would be if they were "fixed speed" units.

I have worked out a simple method of measuring the imbalance between the 2 motors to prove (or if I'm wrong disprove) this.

The point about series/parallel motors also intrigues me, I intend to take one apart soon and see exactly what they mean. I can see two possibilities:-

1. the field windings have been connected in some parallel arrangement before connecting them in series with the armature.

2. There is a field winding in parallel with the armature, parallel wound motors have a much more constant speed characteristic, so the most likely reason for this would be to stop the motor from overspeeding under light load conditions.

All I know is this is the most interesting and promising project I've worked on in years (P.S don't tell Jim, he might get really big-headed about it!)

regards Shaun.

[Lewis]

Hello,

Merely here by invitation of Lewis - looking for cheap Plasma are we???

Always an avenue worth exploring.

Andy Thomlinson.

Ruftraks UK Limited.

Hi Andy, dont really understand what you are asking - If you are implying that I want a further discount on the already excellent price you gave me then that is not the case, although if you are offering one then who am i to refuse

I merely wish to have the ropes

My earlier comment was not intended as an insult or bad reference to you in any way, apart from the as yet lack of winch rope in my sweaty little mit I have been pleased with our transaction so far, and would use your company again in the future

Best Regards

Lewis

[Portal Bob]

Hi Andy, dont really understand what you are asking - If you are implying that I want a further discount on the already excellent price you gave me then that is not the case, although if you are offering one then who am i to refuse

I merely wish to have the ropes

My earlier comment was not intended as an insult or bad reference to you in any way, apart from the as yet lack of winch rope in my sweaty little mit I have been pleased with our transaction so far, and would use your company again in the future

Best Regards

Lewis

Hi Lewis,

Do you know I never even thought of you when I replied - didn't associate you with the outstanding order - dumb or what!!

It was only when you replied that I made the connection - always a slow start to the year here in Scotland, especially me!!!!

As agreed, I will put on my angry, chaser hat on Monday and find out where the order has gone!!

Best wishes,

Andy Thomlinson.

www.ruftraks.co.uk

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Ok

I have to ask Andy (and welcome BTW)

why have you called yerself Portal Bob, Portal maybe I can work out, er but "Bob" ?

Or are you a black adder fan

Nige

PS Happy with the plasma from you ...........some while ago

[pritch1]

Ok

I have to ask Andy (and welcome BTW)

why have you called yerself Portal Bob, Portal maybe I can work out, er but "Bob" ?

Or are you a black adder fan

Nige

has he not got a bobtailed range rover running on portal axles

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

has he not got a bobtailed range rover running on portal axles

Pah

Maybe, but then why not 'Portal Tom'

'Portal RT'

'Portal Andy'

'Portal 79% discount Nige and no VAT"

Nige

[Portal Bob]

Pah

Maybe, but then why not 'Portal Tom'

'Portal RT'

'Portal Andy'

'Portal 79% discount Nige and no VAT"

Nige

Hi Nige,

I have now updated the picture and the signature ( thanks).

Why Portal Bob??

Well it's a black RR Bob on Portals.

Really short at 88"" wheelbase.

It has been built over the last 18 months, with lots of mods.

Even more since that picture was taken - looks quite different now.

All your suggestions are very apt, but I think I will stick with mine!

Regards,

Andy Thomlinson

POA & Custodian of Portal Bob.

[TomG]

Came across this: Chevy Volt hybrid car

Got me thinking...

"The battery pack provides power to a 161 hp (120 kW) electric motor that's connected to the front wheels winch to provide the motive force."

Maybe the future is electric

[Shaun D]

Now there's a thought, not tomorrow but who's to say where we will be in 5, or maybe 10 years time?

[dollythelw]

Hardly a glowing debute..........

Oh, I don't know top three places in the toughest event in the UK againist cars built for Ladoga

I didnt realise that more than one car came? - I only knew about Jerzy and I understand he came in handy by recovering cars with U/S leccy winches with his BigStar PTO, glad to hear you beat what is a seriously reliable car with a pair of senior citizens in it (Im gonna pay for calling them old but Jerzy is older than Noah and Nick was on first name terms with serveral Pharohs) before retiring with your teething probs

The gear material specification has been raised from EN24 to EN36 for increased strength and reliability.

thats more like it, now we can almost answer the original question

its something like (Xb Y Sb F) / DP = lbs/in IMS but its been a while since I worked out tangental loads for spur gears, maybe Dave A or DAAN could correct my maths?

Just a comment regarding load sharing with twin motors, series wound motors aren't constant speed units so as long as the units are of the same type and in similar condition as Jim says I don't see that there will be a problem.As I see it if one motor is say 5% faster than the other it would do maybe 5% more work (at worst) it would not carry nearly all the load as it would be if they were "fixed speed" units.

interesting idea, I would have assumed that as they are running off the same gear they wouldnt have the opportunity to run at different speeds, or are you suggesting that one unit mearely "fills in the gaps" from the inefficient unit? in that case what would the implications of back emf or braking effort? I can the system working although the efficiency would plummet

any idea what the torque is from the motors on overvolt? I dont think Ive ever seen a definitive input power/output torque figure for a leccy winch motor and gauging efficiency would make for interesting numbers

Jim - I cant afford testing but my wife is racing Tr2 (think that makes her the only Brit?) and her Zooki needs a winch so feel free to get some accelerated wear testing by using her car as a guinea pig?

[Daan]

its something like (Xb Y Sb F) / DP = lbs/in IMS but its been a while since I worked out tangental loads for spur gears, maybe Dave A or DAAN could correct my maths?

Eh? My name? in an electric winch thread? I know jack about leccy winches or anything else sparky, which is why I steer well clear from them.

Which is why I dont get involved, because I am happy with prehistoric mechanical Dibnah style devices. That and because no one takes a blinding bit of notice of what I think.

This is now more starting to look like an electric/hydraulic WHINCH thread.

Still want to know the weigth of an all singing and dancing gigglepin 8274 though.

Daan

[FridgeFreezer]

interesting idea, I would have assumed that as they are running off the same gear they wouldnt have the opportunity to run at different speeds, or are you suggesting that one unit mearely "fills in the gaps" from the inefficient unit? in that case what would the implications of back emf or braking effort? I can the system working although the efficiency would plummet

I like that - two motors tied together by a gear, with one motor trying to drive the other one faster than it wants to go, which will then act as a regenerative brake and try to force current back through the other one

[Mark90]

I can't see one motor driving the other like that. As the stronger motor pushes the gear harder/faster this takes load of the weaker motor and therefore it will try and run faster. So I can see the motors both driving the gear at equal speeds even if they are not sharing the load 50:50.

Sorry no maths/tech to back this up, it's just a feel/intuition/experince thing based on how winch motors seem to react to loads.

Probably a poor analogy..

Two people pushing a car, the stronger one can push it faster and harder that the weaker one but if the stronger is taking more than half the load the weaker one can keep up the speed pushing a lower load. It only becomes a problem if the speed exceeds the max speed of the weaker one. But with reasonably equally matched people/motor this shouldn't be a problem.

[D9OSV]

I can't see one motor driving the other like that. As the stronger motor pushes the gear harder/faster this takes load of the weaker motor and therefore it will try and run faster. So I can see the motors both driving the gear at equal speeds even if they are not sharing the load 50:50.

Sorry no maths/tech to back this up, it's just a feel/intuition/experince thing based on how winch motors seem to react to loads.

Probably a poor analogy..

Two people pushing a car, the stronger one can push it faster and harder that the weaker one but if the stronger is taking more than half the load the weaker one can keep up the speed pushing a lower load. It only becomes a problem if the speed exceeds the max speed of the weaker one. But with reasonably equally matched people/motor this shouldn't be a problem.

Basicly spot on

Some just seem intent trying to turn the thread around for there own amusement

Jez, i have already siad, if you wish to purchase a winch housing for your own or wifes use no problem....

But i'm afraid that i will have to delcine the kind offer of a chance to sponser you or wife, on the grounds that we just can't seem to make these housings fast enough at present

Sorry to be pain

But Jez, do feel free to attend any UK event or contact us directly if you would to travel to us for a demo

I strongly believe in our product and am happy to show you at anytime

Kind regards

Jim

[FridgeFreezer]

Some just seem intent trying to turn the thread around for there own amusement

Jim, I think that's a bit harsh - OK there's been a lot of playful banter here but people have asked some fairly pertinent and reasonably basic questions that haven't yet got answers. We still don't even know the actual efficiency / power output of a 4.6HP motor, we don't know what the current draw is under load (are clamp meters really that expensive?), we don't know what the rated pull of the modified winch is, we don't know how the two motors interact (and "oh it works out OK" is not really an answer for a fully tested product IMHO), we don't know how 24v into 12v affects the motor's lifespan.

So far all we have is back-of-fag-packet maths, assurances from you that "it all works" and a nice video that doesn't prove a lot. With hydraulic, or mech, you can look up specs and make calculations on flow/pressure/torque/gearing etc. for pumps and motors with data available from the manufacturers and end up with actual solid answers for all the parameters. If someone asked Jez, or Ian, or Nige, to prove that their winches did what they claim they could not only prove it in real life but back it up with a sheet of paper with actual numbers and specs on.

If I was shopping for a winch and had to choose between "This will work, and here's the data to prove it" and "This will work because I say it will" I know which one I'd go for.

Oh and I don't see this as an electric-vs-hydro thread, it's just that you've got to compare it to something and most other people seem to be running hydro.

[dollythelw]

thats cool, I'll take you up on the demo offer next time Im passing

if you cant keep up with production then mrs Jez wont place an order - she actually needs to have a winch

sorry if the questions appeared harsh - it wasnt intentional or done for my or anyone elses amusement, I ask questions of anything I may need to spend money on to ensure I get value for money and a product that lives up to its advertised claims. Thats not being a pain its simply being a wise consumer - if nothing else it keeps salesmen reading thier product literature until they can recite the numbers.

Sorry Daan - I couldnt rememeber if you did any powertrain work with Skoda Rally

[D9OSV]

Jim, I think that's a bit harsh - OK there's been a lot of playful banter here but people have asked some fairly pertinent and reasonably basic questions that haven't yet got answers. We still don't even know the actual efficiency / power output of a 4.6HP motor, we don't know what the current draw is under load (are clamp meters really that expensive?), we don't know what the rated pull of the modified winch is, we don't know how the two motors interact (and "oh it works out OK" is not really an answer for a fully tested product IMHO), we don't know how 24v into 12v affects the motor's lifespan.

So far all we have is back-of-fag-packet maths, assurances from you that "it all works" and a nice video that doesn't prove a lot. With hydraulic, or mech, you can look up specs and make calculations on flow/pressure/torque/gearing etc. for pumps and motors with data available from the manufacturers and end up with actual solid answers for all the parameters. If someone asked Jez, or Ian, or Nige, to prove that their winches did what they claim they could not only prove it in real life but back it up with a sheet of paper with actual numbers and specs on.

If I was shopping for a winch and had to choose between "This will work, and here's the data to prove it" and "This will work because I say it will" I know which one I'd go for.

Oh and I don't see this as an electric-vs-hydro thread, it's just that you've got to compare it to something and most other people seem to be running hydro.

Good afternoon Fridge,

Just out of intrest which bit did you not read

"We will be conducting FULL field trails with load cells and measuring equipment shortly, however until then please feel free to do the maths. I have found this thread very intresting and like the banter as well."

Figures will be available just as soon as they have been aquired, there are no secrects here.

As for everyone is going hydraulic....

That is there choice and i wish them well, it is not my place to critize there choice and nor would I.

It is horses for courses although i am a little suprised a the hostility shown by some on here?

I perhaps stupidly thought that people might be genuinely intrested, and be intrested to see this product, and some are......

But i feel aggrieved by the comments of some, that keep pushing when in fact there questions have already been answered.

Regards

Jim

[LR90]

Got to admit Jim seems more helpful than a certain MM distributor (I'm still looking for specs on the milemarker range) and oddly the one winch off that is quoted by the distributor http://www.4x4winches.com/winch_evaluation.htm seems to show the hydraulic units running hotter than the electrics so now I'm real confused

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

If someone asked Jez, or Ian, or Nige, to prove that their winches did what they claim they could not only prove it in real life but back it up with a sheet of paper with actual numbers and specs on.

Easy tiger ................."Numbers" MOI ? .

I can vouch "Its has a bit a pull in it"

My "Thing" dragged out Dead RR after an 8274 PLUS a something else both stalled...

It do have a bit of grunt

I do though have to admit freely and honestly that after the 15 mins winching out I shoved my hand on the Oil tank in the back, and have to report, openly and honestly, that I do think it had some warmth there

Seriously tho its heavy, complex to fit, F expensive to buy, slow compared with almost any decent sorted electric set up, and slow to respool, and lastly the freespool is hard work to....

But :D It do pull some..................

Nige