missingsid Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 20 hours ago, Bowie69 said: Quite right, I was having an "it's daylight daddy it must be time to get up" brain fart moment No probs, it's fun right now isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, missingsid said: No probs, it's fun right now isn't it. That's one word for it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 12 hours ago, Wytze said: Been doing some reading lately , and to stay on the safe side of thing's, i started today on the track rod. In the back is not possible without a big bend underneath the salisbury nose. So i went to the front. Ended up with this. It's about 6,5 inch out on ackerman, in the good way. the inner wheel has 5° more angle then the outer wheel. And the track rod stay's clear from the diff cover. Not done yet.. First get it all working and then i will take it apart and blast it all and weld it all up. But it's going the way i hoped it would. If you are going the welded route (not convinced it is leagal in UK and god help you if it causes a fatal accident) but I would go with much more bracing than this. The US make up high steer with huge bracing ( yes I know they will add rams so it needs to be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I'm wondering if there could be a bolt on solution for this.....? Solid steel bracket that picks up on the existing front drag link taper, plus has a piece that extends up to pick up on the top swivel pin bolts (which are replaced with longer of course). The new piece has a taper in it to accept the drag link ball joint, then you use the Steve Parker style steering bars setup. This would reverse the reverse Ackerman. Obviously only work with the later swivels where they have the two front arms, but, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 13 hours ago, lo-fi said: What I was pondering about - without having messed with the boingy setup myself - was swapping the left arm to the right and vice versa, giving TRE spacing outboard as on the series for the correct Ackerman setup with track rod in front. Or something close, at least. Clearance issue not withstanding, and hypothetical as a point of discussion. As I said before, they’re cast as part of the housing, not a bolt on part like Series axles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wytze Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Yes, i know and i will. This is just to see if it will all fit and work. It will get some sort of fork, where the rosejoint is in between. And high steer to stay level and above the springs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 12 hours ago, Wytze said: Been doing some reading lately , and to stay on the safe side of thing's, i started today on the track rod. In the back is not possible without a big bend underneath the salisbury nose. So i went to the front. Ended up with this. It's about 6,5 inch out on ackerman, in the good way. the inner wheel has 5° more angle then the outer wheel. And the track rod stay's clear from the diff cover. Not done yet.. First get it all working and then i will take it apart and blast it all and weld it all up. But it's going the way i hoped it would. If the ball joint clears the wheel, then geometrically that’ll work. Welding cast isn’t easy, so you’d really want some sort of Non destructive testing on those welds, given their importance and high stresses. I think most of Europe would consider welded steering parts like that illegal. I’m pretty sure the UK does, even if NDT shows good welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: I'm wondering if there could be a bolt on solution for this.....? Solid steel bracket that picks up on the existing front drag link taper, plus has a piece that extends up to pick up on the top swivel pin bolts (which are replaced with longer of course). The new piece has a taper in it to accept the drag link ball joint, then you use the Steve Parker style steering bars setup. This would reverse the reverse Ackerman. Obviously only work with the later swivels where they have the two front arms, but, maybe? You could use the existing housings and swap them from side to side as Big66 asked previously. The only I’ll effects of that are having the callipers in a different place that may interfere with where the track rod needs to be and the filler plug will be on the other side, mildly affecting fill level accuracy. If the callipers do end up in the way doing this, then you would need the left housing from an RHD vehicle and the right housing from a LHD vehicle to have the drag link arms up front, but if you’re going to be cutting and welding, you could just work with what you have and cut the track rod ends off the back and weld them to the front of their respective housings. Again, I’m not in favour of this as I think it’s a severe safety and legal issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Personally, I think swapping swivels from either side will end up with further problems that we can't forsee without trying it, hence suggestions of later swivel housings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Snagger said: You could use the existing housings and swap them from side to side as Big66 asked previously. The only I’ll effects of that are having the callipers in a different place that may interfere with where the track rod needs to be and the filler plug will be on the other side, mildly affecting fill level accuracy. If the callipers do end up in the way doing this, then you would need the left housing from an RHD vehicle and the right housing from a LHD vehicle to have the drag link arms up front, but if you’re going to be cutting and welding, you could just work with what you have and cut the track rod ends off the back and weld them to the front of their respective housings. Again, I’m not in favour of this as I think it’s a severe safety and legal issue. For me personally, I will only go with a bolt on solution and if there isn’t one then so be it. The track rod at the front is a nice to have not a need to have but I’m finding the discussion very interesting and learning a lot so that’s win 👍. There’s been some good suggestions thrown up and lots of useful contributions but now I think the next step is to get an axle on the workshop floor and try to see what works and what doesn’t. On the subject of the calliper position, am I correct in thinking that the coil sprung caster angle is somewhere in the region of 12 degrees and that the leaf sprung caster is 3 degrees? My plan is to rotate the swivel ball to achieve a caster closer to that of the leaf sprung axle although if I end up with a few degrees of additional angle (5-6) then I don’t think that will have any major adverse effects on steering. If the swivel housings are swapped over to get the track rod to the front of the axle then I’m guesstimating that the callipers will be sitting in the 1-2 o’clock position and that rotating the swivel clockwise to correct the caster angle will move the calliper closer to the 3 o’clock position where conflict with the TCA is more likely? All this on the current assumption that there is no change in spring shackle length or wedging of the axle pad. This in itself may end up as a show stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo-fi Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 For me, welding steering components is a red line never to cross. You have no idea what metal they are, and then have no way to guarantee a good joint that won't fail at a bad moment. "it looked like a good weld, your honour" is absolutely not good enough here. I won't even weld tubes, let alone cast arms. And that's before even considering the legal aspect. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo-fi Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I have to apologise, for some reason I thought the coiler swivels had bolt on arms like the series. Ignore my idea about swapping left to right, it won't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 41 minutes ago, lo-fi said: I have to apologise, for some reason I thought the coiler swivels had bolt on arms like the series. Ignore my idea about swapping left to right, it won't help. Can’t the complete housing be swapped? I am a bit confused though because when I looked at the 110 yesterday, it looks like the TCAs are outboard of the kingpin pivot point and not inside it as the Ackermann principal suggests it should be for a rear track rod.🤷♂️ We’re going to have some fun when I get this axle delivered that’s for sure 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo-fi Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) No, that would be pointless. If they look outboard, there's an optical illusion going on - have a look over the drawings again. I don't think this one is tractable, there is literally no way to do it that'll provide a satisfactory result in terms of steering geometry or without resorting to nasty bodges like chopping the arms and welding. Interesting discussion, but the Haystee conversion kit is probably the best way to go. Edited May 10, 2020 by lo-fi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 I got impatient waiting so I popped a front wheel off the 110 to take a looksee. The wheels are set straight ahead and from what I can see, the TCA taper hole is definitely inboard of the top swivel pin and looks to be in line with the centre line of the axle as discussed earlier. In other words, slightly inboard of the kingpin line as it should be 👍 I placed a long bolt on the centre of the top swivel pin to try and give a visual reference point between the various positions. Again, it’s no big drama if the track rod has to remain at the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 38 minutes ago, lo-fi said: No, that would be pointless. If they look outboard, there's an optical illusion going on - have a look over the drawings again. I don't think this one is tractable, there is literally no way to do it that'll provide a satisfactory result in terms of steering geometry or without resorting to nasty bodges like chopping the arms and welding. Interesting discussion, but the Haystee conversion kit is probably the best way to go. An optical illusion it was 🙈 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Bigj66 said: For me personally, I will only go with a bolt on solution and if there isn’t one then so be it. The track rod at the front is a nice to have not a need to have but I’m finding the discussion very interesting and learning a lot so that’s win 👍. There’s been some good suggestions thrown up and lots of useful contributions but now I think the next step is to get an axle on the workshop floor and try to see what works and what doesn’t. On the subject of the calliper position, am I correct in thinking that the coil sprung caster angle is somewhere in the region of 12 degrees and that the leaf sprung caster is 3 degrees? My plan is to rotate the swivel ball to achieve a caster closer to that of the leaf sprung axle although if I end up with a few degrees of additional angle (5-6) then I don’t think that will have any major adverse effects on steering. If the swivel housings are swapped over to get the track rod to the front of the axle then I’m guesstimating that the callipers will be sitting in the 1-2 o’clock position and that rotating the swivel clockwise to correct the caster angle will move the calliper closer to the 3 o’clock position where conflict with the TCA is more likely? All this on the current assumption that there is no change in spring shackle length or wedging of the axle pad. This in itself may end up as a show stopper. I mentioned in this post that I’d read some information which stated the caster angle on a coil axle was different to that of a leaf axle, 12 degrees compared to 3 degrees. Reading up again on the subject, it seems that some people believe that the two are actually the same at 3 degrees. To avoid any further confusion for myself or anyone who may also be looking for this information, does anyone know for certain what that angle is, where I can find it documented or can recommend a way for me to measure it accurately from the axle I have? I think, in the interests of safety, it’s important that this sort of information is unambiguous and supported with some form of evidence if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Coilers are definitely 3 degrees, and series is stated as 3 degrees here, from the workshop manual: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Coilers are definitely 3 degrees, and series is stated as 3 degrees here, from the workshop manual: Cheers, I suspect that the author of the post I read initially was getting diff nose angle and caster angle confused. Perils of the interweb...😐 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Have to say, the negative ackerman problem is not bad enough to warrant welding to a cast component. This is always going to be tricky. I know wytze is planning to change to a fabricated bracket, but even so. There is a standard bent trackrod available for this. Another angle is to just fit a coilspring front axle. If your tyre size is 35", some ashcroft internals should easily make it reliable. And the spring over conversion to a coiler axle is dead easy. Problem solved. Almost every challenge truck now has hydro steer mounted to the front of the axle, and if you do this to a rover axle, you have negative ackerman. In theory it is not ideal, but in practice, it works ok. For the people who wish to graft coiler sides to a leaf sprung axle, I noticed this (from another forum): https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/store/Land-Rover-Stage-One-V8-Front-Half-Shafts-Uprated-23-24-Spline-p196582103 Daan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Bowie69 said: Personally, I think swapping swivels from either side will end up with further problems that we can't forsee without trying it, hence suggestions of later swivel housings. Just thought of one - the stop lock bolts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wytze Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Daan said: Have to say, the negative ackerman problem is not bad enough to warrant welding to a cast component. This is always going to be tricky. I know wytze is planning to change to a fabricated bracket, but even so. There is a standard bent trackrod available for this. Another angle is to just fit a coilspring front axle. If your tyre size is 35", some ashcroft internals should easily make it reliable. And the spring over conversion to a coiler axle is dead easy. Problem solved. Almost every challenge truck now has hydro steer mounted to the front of the axle, and if you do this to a rover axle, you have negative ackerman. In theory it is not ideal, but in practice, it works ok. For the people who wish to graft coiler sides to a leaf sprung axle, I noticed this (from another forum): https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/store/Land-Rover-Stage-One-V8-Front-Half-Shafts-Uprated-23-24-Spline-p196582103 Daan This what i'm trying to do is just a thing in my head. If i don't try, it will allways be there. If i try and it does not work, or i would not trust it's stenght. it will get scrapped. I can allways find a set of swivels again and go for a different way. We can learn a lot from just trying. And making mistakes are good lessons. When i build something, i need it to be safe and strong. opinions from others are allways welcome, ten know more then one. But , just saying that will never work , sounds just to negative to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Bigj66 said: Cheers, I suspect that the author of the post I read initially was getting diff nose angle and caster angle confused. Perils of the interweb...😐 Exactly. Both generations have 3 degrees of castor, but while the Series axle has a horizontal diff pinion axis, the coiler shave an inclined diff, so the angle between diff pinion and swivel pins are different for the two generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Daan said: Have to say, the negative ackerman problem is not bad enough to warrant welding to a cast component. This is always going to be tricky. I know wytze is planning to change to a fabricated bracket, but even so. There is a standard bent trackrod available for this. Another angle is to just fit a coilspring front axle. If your tyre size is 35", some ashcroft internals should easily make it reliable. And the spring over conversion to a coiler axle is dead easy. Problem solved. Almost every challenge truck now has hydro steer mounted to the front of the axle, and if you do this to a rover axle, you have negative ackerman. In theory it is not ideal, but in practice, it works ok. For the people who wish to graft coiler sides to a leaf sprung axle, I noticed this (from another forum): https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/store/Land-Rover-Stage-One-V8-Front-Half-Shafts-Uprated-23-24-Spline-p196582103 Daan Challenge trucks... key words. Not road legal and not generally used on high traction surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigj66 Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 53 minutes ago, Wytze said: This what i'm trying to do is just a thing in my head. If i don't try, it will allways be there. If i try and it does not work, or i would not trust it's stenght. it will get scrapped. I can allways find a set of swivels again and go for a different way. We can learn a lot from just trying. And making mistakes are good lessons. When i build something, i need it to be safe and strong. opinions from others are allways welcome, ten know more then one. But , just saying that will never work , sounds just to negative to me. Same here. I love a challenge and enjoy the discussion but there’s a line for me that I won’t cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.