Chicken Drumstick Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just one I'm pondering. Is there anything to prevent a Td5 engine mating to an LT-77? Such as in a 2.5TD 90? We have a 1989 Ninety which is currently converted to 200Tdi power, but the engine is showing signs it is nearing the end. And the price of a replacement 200Tdi or the extra cost in converting to a 300 has us wondering if a Td5 could be suitable. As these engines cost about the same to attain, but have the benefit of much more refinement and potential power. There is nothing wrong with the LT-77 or transfer box in the Ninety however. And replacing the drivetrain and/or seat boxes/tunnel gets somewhat pricey. I've seen conversions with people swapping to R380's and going the full hog. But not any with just swapping in the engine. I understand piping for exhaust/rad/PAS/oil cooler, etc and wiring would all need to be considered. But they are for a 200/300 swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Or rebuild the existing 200TDi, I did mine at home 2 years ago, took the big parts to a local engine machine shop for the block rebore, crank grind, camshaft bearing replacement, head skim, in all it cost me around £1700 inc parts,machining,vat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 It’s an option. But I think it may be needing a new crank. So might not be the most economical option. Also this is an opportunity to try and make the vehicle more refined. The Tdi’s are fine old lumps. But they are all bloody noisy and unrefined. Even compared to a 2.5TD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Does someone make an adapter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 If an R380 can fit a Tdi then doesnt that mean an LT77 will fit a TD5? You may just need to alter the position of the engine mounts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 31 minutes ago, reb78 said: If an R380 can fit a Tdi then doesnt that mean an LT77 will fit a TD5? You may just need to alter the position of the engine mounts? That is our thinking. Just wanted to make sure they would actually mate up ok. Expensive experiment otherwise. Happy to fab up mounts for the engine in whatever position it ends up really. Just trying to avoid laying for another gearbox too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Chicken Drumstick said: That is our thinking. Just wanted to make sure they would actually mate up ok. Expensive experiment otherwise. Happy to fab up mounts for the engine in whatever position it ends up really. Just trying to avoid laying for another gearbox too. It makes sense its just everyone does it the other way normally - upgrading the later gearboxes onto a older tdi rather than a later engine onto an LT77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, reb78 said: If an R380 can fit a Tdi then doesnt that mean an LT77 will fit a TD5? You may just need to alter the position of the engine mounts? The TD5 has a different bellhousing and input shaft to a TDI. For the R380, they use a specific bellhousing and a different input shaft. These would not be available for an LT77. Edited June 17, 2020 by Red90 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 You’d need a custom adaptor as there’s no combination of standard parts that would fit I don’t think. An R380 Td5 bell housing would potentially fit onto the front of an LT77 as the bolt pattern is common, but the input shaft would need to be custom. Fitting a Td5 R380 is likely to be less expensive and if you’re willing to do custom pipework etc. on the engine side you could keep the gearboxes in the old 200Tdi position. Personally though given Td5 Defenders are everywhere and everything is available fairly easily second hand I would just fit it all as Land Rover did. Seatbox can be modified - floor pan, props and tunnel are easy and cheap to find. The rest you would need regardless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 Thanks for the info. So the TD5 engine has a different bell housing bolt pattern then compared to a Tdi? Is it common to any other engines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Yes very different. I’m not aware of any other engines with the same pattern Tdi Td5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 Thanks for the superb info. I guess this answers why you don't see all that many converted TD5's out there. As it is a significant amount more work when all said and done (a friend has one, 300 to Td5, but all done as per factory and cost a small fortune to do). I wonder if a half way measure would be the use of an R380 stumpy, as this was designed to fit in place of the LT-77 in older vehicles. With have a 200Tdi Disco with this setup. I would assume the R380 stumpy would bolt in place of an LT-77 and not require any modifications to the seatbox/drivetrain in a 90. If the TD5 would then mate to this box (I guess the input shaft might need modifying??). Then it would mean all the Td5 retrofit parts would be engine bay side of the bulkhead. Which might make it a simpler fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 I can't imagine you'll fit a TD5 along with modified gearbox, fuel tank (you need the high pressure fuel pump, and if you have a standard crossmember the TD5 tank doesn't fit without mods), airbox, all the other gubbins and bits you have to adapt (power steering etc) cheaper than you could make a nice job of overhauling the Tdi, even if a little machining was needed. Plus long term, a nice 200tdi 90 will probably be worth more than a modified frankencar. I gave my 200 a mini overhaul a while back, plus took some time to port the cylinder head & manifold, lapped the valves in, set timing nice, little wastegate & fueling adjustment, bigger exhaust etc and there's not a fat lot of difference in performance with a td5, certainly a tired old one. Only takes a day to whip the engine out and strip it down, so may as well check it first.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 There is no stumpy TD5 bellhousing or input shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, Eightpot said: I can't imagine you'll fit a TD5 along with modified gearbox, fuel tank (you need the high pressure fuel pump, and if you have a standard crossmember the TD5 tank doesn't fit without mods), airbox, all the other gubbins and bits you have to adapt (power steering etc) cheaper than you could make a nice job of overhauling the Tdi, even if a little machining was needed. Plus long term, a nice 200tdi 90 will probably be worth more than a modified frankencar. I gave my 200 a mini overhaul a while back, plus took some time to port the cylinder head & manifold, lapped the valves in, set timing nice, little wastegate & fueling adjustment, bigger exhaust etc and there's not a fat lot of difference in performance with a td5, certainly a tired old one. Only takes a day to whip the engine out and strip it down, so may as well check it first.. Vehicle is arguably already a frankencar, it's an F plate with a 200Tdi.... Long term value doesn't really matter. There is no intention at all of it being sold. And as said, think it needs more than a refresh. Needing a new crank more than likely, which makes a rebuild somewhat pricey tbh. And fundamentally this will never solve the issue of the Tdi being an unrefined, noisy person I'm not that keen on of an engine I think an RV8 swap may be more likely than a Tdi rebuild at this stage. But the decision isn't up to me. I'm just looking at what options/alternatives are out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, Red90 said: There is no stumpy TD5 bellhousing or input shaft. Would the regular TD5 bell housing not work? No idea how long it is or where the engine would end up though. Input shaft, I agree. However I have no idea if it would be possible to alter/modify it to suit. Ashcroft Transmissions is only down the road from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said: Would the regular TD5 bell housing not work? No idea how long it is or where the engine would end up though. If you use the regular TD5 bellhousing, it is then a regular R380 and not a stumpy. A "stumpy" is an R380 with a short bellhousing and input shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Red90 said: If you use the regular TD5 bellhousing, it is then a regular R380 and not a stumpy. A "stumpy" is an R380 with a short bellhousing and input shaft. Yeah, but using a regular R380 means moving the gearbox mounts and a different seatbox/tunnel. I was just wanting to explore what other options existed, if any to get a Td5 running in an older vehicle. Not saying any of it is a deal breaker exactly. It's just good to understand all possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said: Yeah, but using a regular R380 means moving the gearbox mounts and a different seatbox/tunnel. I was just wanting to explore what other options existed, if any to get a Td5 running in an older vehicle. Not saying any of it is a deal breaker exactly. It's just good to understand all possibilities. You seem to not be understand what I'm saying. The ONLY difference between a regular R380 and a stumpy R380 is the bellhousing and input shaft. You do not need to move the gearbox mounts when using an R380. You can leave it in the LT77 position and keep the tunnel as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 On 6/18/2020 at 4:09 PM, Red90 said: You seem to not be understand what I'm saying. The ONLY difference between a regular R380 and a stumpy R380 is the bellhousing and input shaft. You do not need to move the gearbox mounts when using an R380. You can leave it in the LT77 position and keep the tunnel as is. Interesting. Where is the engine likely to end up though? I assume it would be quite a bit further forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said: Interesting. Where is the engine likely to end up though? I assume it would be quite a bit further forward? No further back. The 300TDI/R380 and all V8s have the gearbox mounted ~2" forward compared to the LT77. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 It would be further forward than the 200Tdi or TD/NA that it replaces but would be further back than a standard Td5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Have a read of this, i was trying to remember where I had seen the info before. https://www.web-rover.co.uk/my_td5.html?n=2 That goes through how someone else has done it without changing seat box etc I think 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddyWinny Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 I seem to recall reading that the R380 fitted to the TD5 has a small diameter input shaft where it sits in the spigot bearing. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajith Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Chicken drumstick, how did you go with the swap. I am currently considering it on a range rover 2 door already swapped with lt230, lt77 and a holden 308. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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