200tdi to 300tdi conversion - new chassis options

[L19MUD]

On Saturday I started the task of welding on a couple of rear cab outriggers on the Hi Cap tipper, most of the chassis looked pretty good but I noticed a few dodgy looking areas and with a clean up it is apparent that the bottom of the chassis rail between the bulkhead outrigger and the rear cab outrigger is rotten. We then looked round in more detail and there are quite a few areas that are suspect. I could patch it up for this MOT but I think we are going to be in exactly the same place next year so we have decided to re chassis.

This truck was originally a 200tdi but it was converted to a 300tdi prior to us owning. When ordering a new chassis from Richards I presume my best option will be to order a 200tdi chassis with 300tdi mounts? How can I check things are in the correct 300tdi position now? It has what I believe to be an R380 box as reverse is bottom right

I have an added complication with this one as the tipping gear and frame are welded to the chassis, I can chop this off and weld back on to the new one but I will obviously have to do that prior to galvanizing

 

 

[Retroanaconda]

Depends how it was converted.

Is the engine and transmission on 200Tdi or 300Tdi mountings? Some pics of the mounts will help identify them.

My method of choice would be to just order a standard 300Tdi chassis and build everything up as it was from the factory, but depending on the answer to the above this could mean new seatbox, floor plates, tunnel, propshafts etc. 

[L19MUD]

Thanks James, yes this was what I was starting to wonder after we made that decision. The only other 300 tdi I have at home is also a conversion so I didn't want to use that as a starting point.  

I would also like to avoid messing about with the current configuration of the rad and intercooler if I can help it. Will take pictures and revert

 

[L19MUD]

9 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

, propshafts etc. 

Is the transfer box in a different position on a 300 to a 200? I didn't realise that

[steve b]

I've got a factory 300 90 on the lift at the moment for some regular service work so if you want some dimensions I can measure up . If you have a R380 then I would think the floor plates and tunnel/seatbox will already be 300 . 

I would agree with James build it as a factory 300 , also would avoid welding the tipper subframe to the chassis to keep future options open and standard fittings

Steve

[L19MUD]

5 minutes ago, steve b said:

I've got a factory 300 90 on the lift at the moment for some regular service work so if you want some dimensions I can measure up . If you have a R380 then I would think the floor plates and tunnel/seatbox will already be 300 . 

I would agree with James build it as a factory 300 , also would avoid welding the tipper subframe to the chassis to keep future options open and standard fittings

Steve

Thanks Steve, I will measure some key points and take some pictures. I don't think the gear levers sit quite in the right place through the tunnel on this truck.

I hear what you are saying re welding to the chassis but they way it has been done is quite neat and allows the rear body to sit in a nice low position which also means the bottom of the tub is in line with the bottom of the doors. I will take pictures of what has been done there too but I am not sure bolting it on will work/be possible

[L19MUD]

Thoughts on useful things to measure;

Front prop length, diff flange to transfer output flange

Rear prop length, diff flange to transfer output flange

Gearbox bell housing length - I could have an R380 stumpy?

Engine mount distance from front cross member

 

Anything else that would help? The more I think about this the more I think this engine sits towards the back like a 200tdi not like a 300tdi normally does

[western]

Stumpy R380 clutch housing part is 11cm from front face to gearbox face. 

[Retroanaconda]

3 hours ago, L19MUD said:

Is the transfer box in a different position on a 300 to a 200? I didn't realise that

Yes - the transfer box sits about 50mm further forward on a 300Tdi/Td5/V8 compared to a 200Tdi/2.5TD/NA. And the longer R380 bellhousing pushes the engine further forward still.

[L19MUD]

OK these are the measurements - I think it is in the standard 300 position? Note the prop lengths go to a rear Salisbury diff as its a 110 and I think it has a roughly 2 inch lift

Front prop length, diff flange to transfer output flange - 64cm

Rear prop length, diff flange to transfer output flange -108cm

Gearbox bell housing length - 24cm

Gearbox from T box to engine  - 63cm

Engine mount distance from front cross member (ignoring triangle strengthening at corners) 50cm both sides

front cross member to lower pulley front face  - 13cm

 

Pictures to follow

 

 

[L19MUD]

Drivers side engine mount - looks like a 300tdi mount welded in?

Pass side (PTO shaft in the way here)

Engine looks in the standard 300TDI position from these 3 pictures?

 

 

The gearbox cross member I think has been home made as the last 300tdi one I removed I think was angled back from the front? This one is square on the front edge

 

Pass side

 

 

Drivers side

 

View from rear of T box

 

[ianmayco68]

Looking at my project 90 which is a 300tdi and my 110 is a 200tdi with no viscous fan or cowling on , I would say that's in the factory 300tdi position or near damn it , you can park a bus in the space in front of the engine on the 110 . I haven't measured mine but on the Gwyn Lewis website it says ,

200tdi rear prop working length 1045 +/- 8mm , front 685 +/-8mm

300tdi rear prop working length 1095 +/-8mm , front 637 +/- 8mm 

if you need any more measurements just ask it's in the shed being rebuilt although nearly done ,but remember the 300tdi is a 90 , so can't help with the rear .

cheers Ian

Edited November 23, 2020 by ianmayco68

[steve b]

I do remember the tub fitting being nice and low profile but I'm sure some creative bolt on fabrication will work ok  

Front prop. including the transfer flange 640mm (high end of standard ride height ) 

NS engine mount side plate to rear gusset of shock tower/spring mount 46mm

vertical face of BH to rear of head casting lug for lifting eye 258mm

Steve

[L19MUD]

14 minutes ago, steve b said:

I do remember the tub fitting being nice and low profile but I'm sure some creative bolt on fabrication will work ok  

Pictures and discussion to follow on that. I have some ideas too but lets sort the front half of the problem first 😁

 

15 minutes ago, steve b said:

Front prop. including the transfer flange 640mm (high end of standard ride height ) 

NS engine mount side plate to rear gusset of shock tower/spring mount 46mm

vertical face of BH to rear of head casting lug for lifting eye 258mm

My measurement excluded the flange at 64cm but I think this truck is on a rough 1-2 inch lift (wing mirrors sit at a very similar level to my 90 with 2 inch spacer blocks but mine has a winch and that ARB bumper!) Very much points to the 300tdi position though

I will need to go back and check those measurements, thanks

 

[L19MUD]

2 hours ago, ianmayco68 said:

Looking at my project 90 which is a 300tdi and my 110 is a 200tdi with no viscous fan or cowling on , I would say that's in the factory 300tdi position or near damn it , you can park a bus in the space in front of the engine on the 110 . I haven't measured mine but on the Gwyn Lewis website it says ,

200tdi rear prop working length 1045 +/- 8mm , front 685 +/-8mm

300tdi rear prop working length 1095 +/-8mm , front 637 +/- 8mm 

if you need any more measurements just ask it's in the shed being rebuilt although nearly done ,but remember the 300tdi is a 90 , so can't help with the rear .

cheers Ian

Yes I have a 200tdi 90 and the engine is much further back like you say. The prop lengths do indicate a 300tdi standard position and the fan shroud looks like a standard 300tdi item

[Retroanaconda]

I would say that all looks like standard 300Tdi positioning to me. Gearbox crossmember could be a disco one as they had square side plates. 

Do you have the later wider tunnel and different floor plates?

[L19MUD]

7 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

I would say that all looks like standard 300Tdi positioning to me. Gearbox crossmember could be a disco one as they had square side plates. 

Do you have the later wider tunnel and different floor plates?

Wasn't the disco one welded in?

 

I need to get my 200tdi 90 next to it to check the tunnel

[ianmayco68]

Not that I know of , when I brought the auto box for the 90 out of a disco , the x-men was with it and that was bolt on , holes slightly different. Still got it in the shed . The 200tdi tunnel is a lot narrower than the 300tdi one also there’s an extra sticky out bit on the drivers side .

Edited November 23, 2020 by ianmayco68

[ianmayco68]

pic from my build thread if it helps .

[L19MUD]

2 minutes ago, ianmayco68 said:

Not that I know of , when I brought the auto box for the 90 out of a disco , the x-men was with it and that was bolt on . Still got it in the shed . The 200tdi tunnel is a lot narrower than the 300tdi one also there’s an extra sticky out bit on the drivers side .

Have some research and you are both right. Disco one just needs a trim for the seat box mount but puts the box in an identical position

This all points to it being in the correct factory position for a 300. Cant say i have noticed the tunnel being loads different but it must be....will go over and look tomorrow

[Retroanaconda]

Indeed. From Td5 (ish) onwards they went to welded-on gearbox mounts and a separate crossmember back in the old location. The mounts put the box in the same position relative to the chassis rails, it’s just how they’re mounted that’s different. 

[monkie]

I don't know the specifics on this but want to raise the question of can you upgrade from a 200tdi chassis to a 300tdi chassis without informing DVLA? I always thought a new chassis should be a like for like replacement in terms of dimensions and things like engine mounts etc. 

I guess many people don't bother, but just wanted to ask before anyone spends alot of money. 

[L19MUD]

4 minutes ago, monkie said:

I don't know the specifics on this but want to raise the question of can you upgrade from a 200tdi chassis to a 300tdi chassis without informing DVLA? I always thought a new chassis should be a like for like replacement in terms of dimensions and things like engine mounts etc. 

I guess many people don't bother, but just wanted to ask before anyone spends alot of money. 

Whilst strictly true how many 200tdi or earlier Defenders are running round with 300tdi's in? No difference buying pre modified or doing it after. 2 slightly different shape engine mounts a couple of inches away dont constitute a huge change

[monkie]

3 minutes ago, L19MUD said:

Whilst strictly true how many 200tdi or earlier Defenders are running round with 300tdi's in? No difference buying pre modified or doing it after. 2 slightly different shape engine mounts a couple of inches away dont constitute a huge change

I completely agree, people do all sorts and don't even tell their insurance company let alone the DVLA. I just wanted to raise the question as a chassis change is so expensive and labour intensive.

[Jon W]

Yer with 1994 being the change over year no one would really know if its meant to be a 2 or 300. It looks like it has been a properly done conversion. The 300 mounts are a lot better than the 200 in terms of damping so I would go with a 300 chassis