Roamerdrive (Defender) noise

[Bowie69]

Yup, J type, good fun in an 1850 Dolomite as well!

[western]

2 hours ago, reb78 said:

This is what I notice with my gkn. People talk about them as a splitter but they gear x+OD is so close to gear x+1 that it really isnt a splitter. 
 

Re the lever - this is where the GKN always wins! Just a flick of a button...

I found if I used miy GKN as a splitter it gave 600rpm more disengaged over the engaged rpm, useful for passing trucks on a motorway incline.  

Just need some dry days to refit & test my unit, its rebuilt & been sat on my garage bench for nearly 12 months.

[elbekko]

How difficult would it be to make the OD air or solenoid operated? Then you could put a button on the main gear lever as well.

[Peaklander]

9 hours ago, western said:

I found if I used miy GKN as a splitter it gave 600rpm more disengaged over the engaged rpm, useful for passing trucks on a motorway incline.  

Just need some dry days to refit & test my unit, its rebuilt & been sat on my garage bench for nearly 12 months.

The overdrive increases the output shaft revolutions by a fixed amount over the input. This is 28% in the case of the Roamerdrive and so the change in the number of revolutions will differ, as it depends on the road speed at the time of the operation.

Yes, it's time to get it back on Ralph - that will be a momentous overdrive fault diagnosis and rebuild.

 

59 minutes ago, elbekko said:

How difficult would it be to make the OD air or solenoid operated?

The operation to engage / disengage is the movement of a shaft into and out of the rear of the case, of about 20-40mm. I suppose it could be done, with appropriate bracing and support of the solenoid / actuator. It would need to operate at an appropriate speed to give the synchromesh time to operate.

[elbekko]

9 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

The operation to engage / disengage is the movement of a shaft into and out of the rear of the case, of about 20-40mm. I suppose it could be done, with appropriate bracing and support of the solenoid / actuator. It would need to operate at an appropriate speed to give the synchromesh time to operate.

Sounds to me like an ideal use case for a small pneumatic cylinder. Low pressure to not overload the synchro.

[Peaklander]

The Laycock overdrive on the Triumph 2500 didn’t need the clutch to be operated. You just clicked the button, that’s why it was so much fun (and I was only 17). I don’t know how that worked. The Roamerdrive does need it though. 

[Bowie69]

Epicyclic gearbox, essentially a two speed automatic gearbox, the switch operates a small solenoid which allows pressurised oil to move the brake band to switch ratio.

Same as the GKN used on LR.

[Northwards]

Can someone tell me what the ‘spec’ is for the sight glass oil level doofer please - what’s the thread size, and does it need to be anything special in terms of heat? I.e glass rather than polycarbonate, or is poly or the like going to be better?

Thanks - just so that I can have as much of this to hand as I can before taking the OD off. 

[Peaklander]

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, it's 3/4"bsp which is actually 1" in diameter. I couldn't get the supplier of a high temperature one to deliver and none of their re-sellers were interested either. I end-up with one from eBay and am keeping an eye on it, as the temperature rating is similar to the oil temp I'm seeing.

This one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272130811414

[Northwards]

^^ thanks - and apologies that I hadn't picked up on that detail earlier. 

[Peaklander]

No apology needed!

I am wondering whether to drop the oil and have a look. It was renewed when my overhauled transfer-box-with-ATB-centre-diff was fitted earlier this year. I've done a few 000 miles since then (Spain trip) and then topped-up when this overdrive was fitted. I don't know what looking at it will do and I can't test it but I guess a look would be OK.

I could either put it back (is that so crazy) or get some more. My 5 litre tin probably won't do two complete changes.

I would also record the temperatures and then renew the stickers.

[Snagger]

Get 500-1000 miles on the overdrive and then replace the oil.  It’d be worth fitting one of Nige’s magnetic drain plugs, too.  I want those for all my drain points.

[4159pjh]

Very interesting post, I have only recently suffered the same failure of my Roverdrive (Roamerdrive early version), I use this unit almost exclusively for towing my 3 ton off road caravan using only 4th gear in my R380 gearbox. I spoke to ray at length prior to purchase about my intended use and if the overdrive was up to the task. Well nearly 12 years later I finally suffered an overheat failure as I missed seeing the temperature rise soon enough to prevent permanent damage.

It is possible I could have rebuilt the old unit but I decided to purchase a new unit with a modification that will include a low volume oil pump from the LT230 transfer case to the filler point of the Roamerdrive activated by a thermostat and an override switch when needed. The installation is almost complete with the only difficulty was having to make my own electric gear type oil pump as I could not find a suitable off the shelf one capable of delivering no more than 2 litres per minute and able to opperate at temps up to 110 degrees C. Please find photographs of my installation including an additional small round finned oil cooler that will give an additional 750ml of oil in the system.

I hope other can benefit from my modification as I have spoken to Ray and although he admits my modification will improve significantly the lubrication and temperature reductions he feels most users would never need these improvements, I will let you all be the judge of that but this post certainly would have benefited if this was in place before the damage shown. I do not see how I can upload my photographs so if someone can email me for help please.

 

 

[Northwards]

Well, my "rebuild" has started - at least in the sense that the unit is out of the car.  I'm taking the transfer box out for some attention, so now's the time. 

First thing I noticed is that I had fitted the gasket correctly (phew!). In fact the one I got with the unit had "this side to overdrive" printed on it which would have helped. So there should be no obvious problems with oil supply. 

When I put it on the bench and turned the input gear with my left hand, I could feel the motion through my right hand along with a slight noise. Nothing like the symptoms Peaklander filmed in the first post, but certainly something that caught my attention. I think I'm very happy that I'm looking at it now and not following a failure hundreds of miles from home.

On the question of spares, I noticed in the instructions that a new crush washer is needed - new kit available from Britpart, fair enough. But I also noticed that the six long bolts attaching the Roamerdrive to the transfer box have O rings in them. I'd hate to re-use an O ring, but using the part number on the RD fitting instructions doesn't come up with anything.  For those who have removed/replaced the unit did you replace them, or just refit? I did a lot of Scuba diving for over 20 years, and re-using an O ring makes me cringe!

 

[Peaklander]

I had some spare O-rings and when I bought the spare parts I think I was sent a few more - perhaps instead of the usual bag of Haribos. You will need to see what other parts you need. All the bearings, plus the baulk rings are easy to source in the UK but if you need other parts they will need to come direct from Roamer Corp. so you can get the O-rings too. Otherwise just buy 'locally'.

Well done on getting started. As you have read, I was happy to jump in the car and ask for help when the going got tough.

 

[Snagger]

Any local bearing specialist should have high end bearings, which may be a wise investment - unless Britpart have changed their ways (I doubt it), the kit bearings are likely to be soft, oval Chinese unbranded scrap.  Interesting that they now have a rebuild kit.  Yes, these overdrives have been around for a while now, so it makes sense, but it seems that it is a tacit recognition of the problems they seem to get, at least the later ones.

Bearing stockists normally also deal in o-rings, so they should have replacements on the peg board.  If you can’t get replacements, get a bottle of seal reconditioner oil additive from Halfrauds and sit the old rings in a 50/50 solution of that and oil (any oil will do) overnight.  That should soften and swell the o-rings close to their original state.

[Northwards]

The Britpart kit isn't a rebuild one as such, just a new crush washer and gasket I think. Intended for situations where the unit has been removed and needs to be refitted; or if it's been sold on. Needs a new crush washer every time. I don't think it included bearings at all. In that respect though, we're well enough served locally. I can think of at least three bearings suppliers in town, and I think I have a contact in one of them. 

[Peaklander]

Yes I'm sure it's only the washer and gasket. They seem to crop-up in more search results than ever before.

I thought I could easily find the prices I paid for the bearings but I can't. However the point was going to be that I'd advise to shop around, as even with postage costs, the on-line supplier prices can be very competitive. Having said that, it's good to support local outlets and you could also be classed as 'remote' for postage costs!

[Northwards]

Well, it's now officially 'in bits' - but before I start, I know this is a topic Peaklander started, but it makes sense to me to put my pics and questions on the end here as a reference for anyone else looking at this. Given that my unit is lightly used, and has only been on the car 19 months I'd suspect this is not going to be too unusual a process for others to follow.

And right at the outset, just to say again how grateful I am to have this thread as a reference and motivator. Without that, I don't think I'd have tackled this. 👍

I started to have a look at the unit last night and kept going until I got to the limits of my tooling and ingenuity. 

So far I think that my unit is in good overall condition - and to be honest, I'd expect that given that it was installed new and has only been on the car since July '21. 

The sun shaft and planet gears assembly turns really nicely, and no sign of any crumbling washers or metal fragments. However this big bearing is almost certainly what's causing my noise on the over-run. I'm sure the noise is there all the time, just that it's more audible when there's no power going through it. 

I don't have a stand for my phone to record video, but when I turn this it's distinctly noisy. In fact when I turn it slowly, it's not moving smoothly but in a series of tiny steps or increments. Way back when I first started tinkering with anything mechanical, I would do the hub bearings on my pedal bike wheels - back in the day when they were loose ball bearings and not sealed cartidges. If I tightened up the axle cones just a little too much, I would feel that the balls weren't turning freely but in a 'notchy' fashion. That's exactly what this is like. 

This is one of the limits of my tooling. I've no way of getting that bearing off (or indeed to press on a new one) so I'll need to find somewhere in town which will do that for me.

If I immobilise that big ball bearing, and turn the planetary assembly to try and check the smaller ball bearing inside the unit, I can't hear or feel anything bad, but there's no way I'm going to get this far without changing it too. Same applies to the bearing at the back of the unit. I haven't got that far yet but it will be changed. 

The only issue I did find was that this baulk ring (?) was missing one tooth. Not really a surprise. There was one occasion, just after I'd fitted the unit and was still getting used to it, that I was coming down a slip road (so not much power applied) and just as I pulled out into my space in the traffic, the Roamerdrive slipped out of gear. I had to jam it back in quickly. 

As you can see, once I'd seen that it was damaged, I saw the fragment of the tooth sitting in the casing and fished it out. I believe these are standard LR parts, and won't need to come from Canada? 

The only other thing I've wondered so far is about the brown colour of oil residue on the outside of the casing. Is this normal, or does it suggest running hot? The hardest use this unit will have had will be long-ish summer motorway runs to/from the nth of Scotland down to the south coast of England for the ferries. (Not the best pic, but what I have). It wipes off very easily, so it's not 'caked on' or anything. 

I think the only other thing I wanted to ask at this stage was - how long do the additional bolts need to be to tap off the syncro-ring and shift assembly from the back of the unit? 

Ta

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, Northwards said:

Well, it's now officially 'in bits' - but before I start, I know this is a topic Peaklander started, but it makes sense to me to put my pics and questions on the end here as a reference for anyone else looking at this. Given that my unit is lightly used, and has only been on the car 19 months I'd suspect this is not going to be too unusual a process for others to follow.

And right at the outset, just to say again how grateful I am to have this thread as a reference and motivator. Without that, I don't think I'd have tackled this. 👍

I started to have a look at the unit last night and kept going until I got to the limits of my tooling and ingenuity. 

So far I think that my unit is in good overall condition - and to be honest, I'd expect that given that it was installed new and has only been on the car since July '21. 

The sun shaft and planet gears assembly turns really nicely, and no sign of any crumbling washers or metal fragments. However this big bearing is almost certainly what's causing my noise on the over-run. I'm sure the noise is there all the time, just that it's more audible when there's no power going through it. 

I don't have a stand for my phone to record video, but when I turn this it's distinctly noisy. In fact when I turn it slowly, it's not moving smoothly but in a series of tiny steps or increments. Way back when I first started tinkering with anything mechanical, I would do the hub bearings on my pedal bike wheels - back in the day when they were loose ball bearings and not sealed cartidges. If I tightened up the axle cones just a little too much, I would feel that the balls weren't turning freely but in a 'notchy' fashion. That's exactly what this is like. 

This is one of the limits of my tooling. I've no way of getting that bearing off (or indeed to press on a new one) so I'll need to find somewhere in town which will do that for me.

If I immobilise that big ball bearing, and turn the planetary assembly to try and check the smaller ball bearing inside the unit, I can't hear or feel anything bad, but there's no way I'm going to get this far without changing it too. Same applies to the bearing at the back of the unit. I haven't got that far yet but it will be changed. 

The only issue I did find was that this baulk ring (?) was missing one tooth. Not really a surprise. There was one occasion, just after I'd fitted the unit and was still getting used to it, that I was coming down a slip road (so not much power applied) and just as I pulled out into my space in the traffic, the Roamerdrive slipped out of gear. I had to jam it back in quickly. 

As you can see, once I'd seen that it was damaged, I saw the fragment of the tooth sitting in the casing and fished it out. I believe these are standard LR parts, and won't need to come from Canada? 

The only other thing I've wondered so far is about the brown colour of oil residue on the outside of the casing. Is this normal, or does it suggest running hot? The hardest use this unit will have had will be long-ish summer motorway runs to/from the nth of Scotland down to the south coast of England for the ferries. (Not the best pic, but what I have). It wipes off very easily, so it's not 'caked on' or anything. 

I think the only other thing I wanted to ask at this stage was - how long do the additional bolts need to be to tap off the syncro-ring and shift assembly from the back of the unit? 

Ta

With regards to removing the bearing, cut through the outer race at 180 degrees between cuts and remove race and balls, do the same with the inner race but only cut 90% of the way through, wearing glasses and gloves hit the inner race with a hammer and drift and it should fall apart.

For the new bearing, stick it in the oven at around 180 / 200 degrees for 15/20 minutes and then slide it over the shaft and into position, the heat from the oven will expand it enough to take away any interference fit

Regards Stephen

[Northwards]

Thanks Stephen. Now that I have my unit in a few pieces Peaklander's pics make a lot more sense to me, so I've been spending time going through the earlier pages of this thread. 

I hadn't thought of cutting the bearing off. I did try hitting it with a wooden drift/hammer last night but that wasn't going anywhere. 

I agree - getting the outer race off would be OK, but then the inner race would still be shielded by the outer housing, and I don't think it would allow me to get in with a drift. There is a spring clip holding the two 'halves' of the thing together, and to access the spring clip, the bearing needs to come off. What I don't know is whether removing the outer race would provide enough access to the spring clip, and therefore allow the 'right hand' housing in this pic below to be pulled off, and in turn allowing access to the bearing inner race. 

Apologies if that's too obvious!

[Stellaghost]

43 minutes ago, Northwards said:

Thanks Stephen. Now that I have my unit in a few pieces Peaklander's pics make a lot more sense to me, so I've been spending time going through the earlier pages of this thread. 

I hadn't thought of cutting the bearing off. I did try hitting it with a wooden drift/hammer last night but that wasn't going anywhere. 

I agree - getting the outer race off would be OK, but then the inner race would still be shielded by the outer housing, and I don't think it would allow me to get in with a drift. There is a spring clip holding the two 'halves' of the thing together, and to access the spring clip, the bearing needs to come off. What I don't know is whether removing the outer race would provide enough access to the spring clip, and therefore allow the 'right hand' housing in this pic below to be pulled off, and in turn allowing access to the bearing inner race. 

Apologies if that's too obvious!

Ok, so a wooden drift needs to be a brass or copper drift, if you cut the outer race off you can then apply localised heat to the inner race to expand it, should then come off reasonably easy, just make sure after heating you start knocking it off quickly before heat gets into the rest of the metal and thus expanding and tightening up again regards Stephen 

[Northwards]

All of that I could manage, thanks. TBH I think a lurgy has got the better of me, and it's just about all I can do to sit here and stare at a screen. Distinct lack of enthusiasm. If I was firing on all cylinders, I'd be right down there, and reporting progress later... 

[Peaklander]

Hi, that big bearing was removed at Mr Gearbox and they used a big press. I unfortunately missed the operation as I was focussing on the back end cover removal! It was definitely pressed-off though; I just don't know what shape tool they used.

As for the rear case, the main assist was heating it in a parts wash at 50C. It was in there for 15mins or so. You will have seen a photo at the top of the thread, of the sun shaft then being tapped out and they did use longer screws. In fact that was the reason that I put the OD in the car as they are 1/4" UNF and I went in search of some but the guys there were so enthusiastic that they ran off with the two halves and as I say, it was hard to monitor.

This photo might help; you can see the longer ones - although I'm not sure if they were much longer at all really. However with enough heat (in your oven?) you might get it moving with the existing screws loose.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Peaklander
corrected thread to 1/4" UNF

[Peaklander]

I forgot to say that the baulk rings are standard LR that you can get locally.