Snagger Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 If washers are missing, then that would explain the wear on the shafts. Have you tried fitting one of the gears to it’s shaft with rollers to see if the two rows are shorter than the gear? If they are, then a separating ring is missing, but if they are the same length, then there is no space for a ring. It’s good that Ray is following the thread - if these are being made under licence or contract to him, and bits are missing, he needs to know about it. But if it has been opened up by a previous owner, as unlikely as that is, then it’d be impossible to determine if it left the factory like that or had been reassembled badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share Posted January 23, 2022 I haven't moved one of the planet gears, that's the one that looks ok. I can count 20 needles in there, from the outside obviously. It's surprising how much room there is between the needles and I would expect that there must be a separating washer otherwise they could move across into the ones in the inner stack. I have bagged it all now, put it in a box and brought it in the house but yes, I should really have a look and feedback to GRC this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 There is a spacer between the two sets of needles, I checked by looking at the only planet gear that I hadn't disturbed. The shafts are so worn that it will need a whole new planet assembly. I have had help again at Mister Gearbox and pressed the synchro hub off the sun shaft (not too tight) and drifted the other large bearing out of the housing (easy). So now the whole thing is disassembled. The most expensive part that I will be buying locally is a 6017 bearing, which appears to be around £65 for a good brand. The other large bearing at the bottom in that photo is a 6009 which is <£20. Ray has asked me to be patient as I wait for the parts list and costs from Global Roamer. They are completing a very large order to ship to the UK this week and after that they can look at what I will need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Ruh-row... Hopefully you can do better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Chinesium bearings ! 😲 Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 Oh I know. They were expected following the earlier experiences of @Snagger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 Now it’s out, it’s clear that it’s the 6009 China bearing which is very noisy. This would be the one that I could hear. Oh how I wish it was the only problem. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wytze Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 The rest of the problems must have rumbled as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 The planet gears are inside their housing, so I’m not sure really just what noise they were making. Trouble is, it was there all the time but a little louder with the OD engaged. Anyway I’m glad I looked as planned maintenance is always better than breakdown repair. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonimouse Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 If you want really good quality bearings at sensible money. go on Facebook and look out for Somerset Bearing Supplies. No one better 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 I’m sure I read somewhere of somebody rebuilding one of these and using better quality bearings but it turned out to be noisy still. They then sourced bearings from Global Roamer, which were the cheaper type, and these worked perfectly? In any case it will be good to see how you get on and I hope it works. They are an excellent unit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 Thanks @Nonimouse, I will have a look at Somerset Bearings, although I will only be sourcing the 6009, 6017 and 6205 and I guess Timken, Naachi, NTN would all be best quality. Ray says that the caged bearing at the front end of the sun shaft is hard to source as a single item but I have asked for the part number. The planet gear needles may or may not be offered as part of a kit and a kit is the way we are going for the planet unit. Ray says it will help to keep costs down and I am all for that. I doubt it will be cheap anyway. An upgraded clutch unit is to be offered too. Also thanks for your encouragement @Retroanaconda. It is going to be an expensive few weeks. Transfer Box overhaul and upgrade, front final diff upgrade, this overdrive. Oh and replacement swivels too. I repaired them once but whilst they are off I decided to go for new ones. £ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 On the Series version, that sun shaft roller bearing is from the SII/SIII transmission, the gearbox main shaft rear bearing that is installed in the cover plate on the transfer box which is removed to fit the overdrive. Might be worth ordering one of those to see if it’s the same on the Defender version. If the existing bearing is OK, though, don’t worry - it carries very little load because of the epicyclic gears making the shafts self-centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 I think that Series bearing has a much bigger diameter. I wrote back to Ray last week asking for a part number for it but haven't yet had a reply. I'm ready and waiting for their parts list and prices but I have the TBox off, the front 'diff' off and the hubs and swivels are fully dismantled. So there's plenty to do and the work space is full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 If you can give a bearing supplier the length of the bearing and the internal and external diameters of the shafts it supports, they should be able to work out what you need and give you options to order if they don’t have it in stock. Post up some detailed shots of that bearing so we can give an opinion on whether it is serviceable or not. What was the yellow patch on the sun shaft partly hidden by the bearing in the photo on the second page of this thread. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 If necessary I can take any bearings or seals into City Seals & Bearings in Sheffield and they will identify. Here's a few more photos, hitherto unpublished, taken as I was splitting the unit. The bearing on the sun shaft does look contaminated. It had been spinning inside the planetary housing of course, which had chewed the needles and some thrust & dog washers. Ray wants me to replace the sun shaft due to the damaged splines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 When cleaned up, are the rollers clean or rust flecked? Hard to tell from those photos, but the first picture in the last post makes them look a little rusty. If that is just dirty oil and they clean up like the centre of the rollers, then I’d say it’s reusable. What exactly is Ray unhappy about on the sun shaft? The planet gear bearing collapse could cause uneven wear on the sun gear, but the sun and ring gear would try to keep the planet gears aligned, so it might be insignificant. I can see the polishing where the planet gears meshed, and of course the damaged peak of one tooth that your specialist already dressed. I can’t see anything on it that looks like it needs replacement, but I can’t see from the photos if you have any significant play in the splines to the synchro hub. A small amount of play would be alright, but if it’s big and you know it is the shaft splines that are worn, not just the synchro splines, then fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Post up some detailed shots of that bearing so we can give an opinion on whether it is serviceable or not. My general rule is that unless a new one costs a million pounds, any bearing I remove from something gets replaced. The taking apart & re-assembly is way more faff than saving £20 on a bearing just because it might have a bit more life left in it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) I was just about to post this photo. It isn’t very healthy. I will be looking for one locally or buying one from Global Roamer. I really don’t know what happened to this unit or when. I would like to understand because when it does get rebuilt it will owe me and I need to know what I can do to prevent it from reoccurring. I am still waiting for the parts list and cost. If it had just been the matter of replacing the two Chinese sourced bearings (6009 & 6017) then it would already be back together. This is a Naachi bearing and Schaffer also make it but it’s hard to source individually apparently. Edited January 31, 2022 by Peaklander Added detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Regarding the sun shaft, Ray says “I feel that as that gear has been exposed to meshing against the planet gears, themselves running on broken shafts with a few chipped teeth, it makes sense to be careful and change it”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 There seem to be a lot of poor quality bits in there? Do you know where the other worn bearings were manufactured? You are doing well to keep your patience I think... given the cost of these units new, you would expect higher quality parts to be in there that dont lead to these failures that have seemingly wrecked other items in the unit. I hope Global Roamer will help you for the price of replacements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: My general rule is that unless a new one costs a million pounds, any bearing I remove from something gets replaced. The taking apart & re-assembly is way more faff than saving £20 on a bearing just because it might have a bit more life left in it. I agree entirely, especially when the part is difficult to get at but the unit is already stripped, but I wanted to judge its condition just in case the bearing is as hard to get as I understood was being stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 11 hours ago, reb78 said: There seem to be a lot of poor quality bits in there? Do you know where the other worn bearings were manufactured? You are doing well to keep your patience I think... Thanks @reb78. At the moment I am frustrated and trying not to let it get to me. It is very hard to get replies / quick turnaround of questions from Global Roamer and it seems to be dragging. However everyday is a new day and maybe I will hear back overnight tonight. I am waiting for the parts list and prices with some trepidation. There are four bearings plus the three in the planet gears. The rear-most roller bearing at the end of the sun shaft is a 6250 and is a Nachi and wasn't noisy but I have an SKF ready to go in. The two big roller bearings 6009 & 6017, as already discussed, are 'China' brand and at least one is very rough, I just can't remember which one as I write. They are easy to source. Then there is the caged needle roller at the front of the sun shaft, shown in the photo above. It is un-named but as I said earlier, Ray tells me it's a Nachi too. I have no idea what the needles are, at the planet gears but I will be refitting 120 of them to a new carrier and three shafts! When I was working, I always had to get to the root cause of a problem in order to be sure that the countermeasure taken was correct. I don't know what has happened here and I don't know the cause or the time scale over which it occurred. Global Roamer say it must be high oil temperature but there was sufficient oil in there and I have an extended sump. I can make sure the quality is correct, that I drive within limits (not hard with a 300TDi) and I will add some stickers. I could buy the gauge but that's more spends. Advice on here suggests water / condensation might have been the problem but I'm not sure and certainly don't know how to prevent that in future. As you may know, I bought the OD secondhand from a well respected member on here. Neither of us know what has gone wrong. I can only hope that the GRCorp prices aren't too high, as I have already committed to a TBox and front 'diff' overhaul and am replacing my swivels 'as I speak', so it is a costly period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 The configuration of the planet gear carrier is very similar on mine with no oilway to feed the bearings. I haven’t had any issues (Tdi too) with those bearings, just the rear most sun shaft bearing having oil starvation from a transfer box leak, but mine also has not had any corrosion. I still think your issues are from oil contamination and breakdown rather than overheating, at least initially, but once things corroded or wore a bit and some bearings broke up, then subsequent overheating may have further ruined the oil or damaged the new oil after a service and continued the issue. I wouldn’t expect to see rust if it was an overheating problem. I think you will find all the bearings locally if you visit a bearing supplier. They will be able to measure everything and go though the specs to source what you need. It might also be worth investigating an engineering shop turn and fit three new planet shafts for you. The planet gears themselves need checking, but may still have life in them if they haven’t been ruined internally. If they have been scored or worn, then they could be honed and larger needle bearings used to compensate. It depends on whether the teeth have significant wear, and I doubt the do from the photos I have seen (not that photos can be definitive in such things). Yep, that sun shaft bearing is dead as a kipper. That photo IS definitive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Fascinating thread chaps but so glad I'm not doing the work. I really hope you can breathe life back into that thing without too much frustration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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