Illegal off roading.

[Timpo]

Hello Folks, I have been reading on some of the other forums of more and more issues where people are driving off legal right of ways on to adjacent moorland, some of which have scientific, historic and other enviromental status.

Now why this is happening is beyond me?

What we must remember is, we are now being scrutinised by the authorities more than ever before and these bands of vandals will cause the end of our pastime, and no doubt they will move on to their next fad and spoil that for the mainstream.

The majoritory of us must pull together and make these people realise the error of their ways and encourage reform.

If your hear of or see any illegal motorcycle or 4x4 activity, without creating a confrontation, try to put the message across that the damage caused by this vandalism takes years to repair and jeopardises the future of vehicular access into the countryside.

If there is a risk of confrontation, take photos or video, and send this to the local Police force. Believe me they will be very interested in it.

You are not being a killjoy or a supergrass, you are assisting in the safeguard of our hobby, which cost us a lot of time and money to pursue.

Thanks for taking time to read this.

Please stay safe and enjoy.

Timpo.

[GBMUD]

Thanks Timpo. There have been a couple of examples of just that happening reported on this forum, one very recently. I would have no hesitation in reporting such illegal activity in order to preserve my rights.

If there is a risk of confrontation, take photos or video, and send this to the local Police force. Believe me they will be very interested in it.

I have to say that this sound unlikely, sorry guys but in these target driven times there is lower hanging fruit.

Chris

[Bomag]

Im with Chris on this one, maybe the Police would take more notice if they received more complaints from vehicular users though.

The Police in Surrey do come out and do spot checks, but they are few and far between

[Paul Humphreys]

I am waiting for North Wales Polics to get back to me as I reported a group 2 weeks ago. I have recived 3 email and 2 phone call sofar. I will post when I have heard back from.

But unless people report them that are doing wrong then nothing is going to be done about it.

Paul

[SteveG]

But unless people report them that are doing wrong then nothing is going to be done about it.

Paul

I agree, and with 4 wheel drive vehicles that is mostly possible, however, more commonly I see trail bikes with no number plates being driven off track. Hard to report this.

Cheers

Steve

[Paul Humphreys]

I agree, and with 4 wheel drive vehicles that is mostly possible, however, more commonly I see trail bikes with no number plates being driven off track. Hard to report this.

Cheers

Steve

Yes this is true, and its only a £30 fine for no number plate and no points.

Paul

[simonr]

Sorry to appear cynical - but I think things have gone too far on the whole anti 4x4 bandwagon for it to make a blind bit of difference whether everyone behaves or not. After all - did all the efforts put in over the years to repair lanes, drive in small groups, not upset anyone stop NERC? No of course not.

While I do not condone illegal or damaging driving - it's getting to the point where it's illegal to drive anywhere. If you are going to break the law anyway - it makes less difference whether it is a previously legal, illegal byway or a SSSI?

One could even argue that reporting such people to the police, just makes 4x4's appear in national police stats which gives the anti's something official to quote.

It's the same as the hand gun ban - lots of illegal use of hand guns in the press, so we'll ban the legal ones.

I have to wonder whether if the 4x4 community was generally more militant and drove the lanes before they closed, in large numbers, we would be viewed as the low hanging fruit. Being passive has not worked so far.

The anti urban 4x4 supporters do not seem averse to breaking the odd law to make a point.

Si

[Steve Hiatt]

Difficult one.

As a farmer I find it more annoying that ramblers can't keep to footpaths. Whilst they may not run over newts their brightly coloured clothes and bobble hats hardly add to the rural vista.

[dollythelw]

Steve - remember the ramblers season ends in mid Feb, mind you I think next year you dont need a game licence for them though so that should save £4 a year...

[Guest diesel_jim]

As a seasoned off roader, i've seriously considered getting another trail bike (like a 400 or 600cc single), having some leaves "glued" to the number plate and riding every footpath and bridleway there is going, especially if more and more byways get downgraded.

i know several people in town here that currently do this (and no, i'm not going to name them! )

[GBMUD]

As a seasoned off roader, i've seriously considered getting another trail bike (like a 400 or 600cc single), having some leaves "glued" to the number plate and riding every footpath and bridleway there is going, especially if more and more byways get downgraded.

i know several people in town here that currently do this (and no, i'm not going to name them! )

I have been looking carefully at BMW F650s...

I know of at least one BOAT which is a recently upgraded bridleway where all of the gates are too narrow for a Landrover. I can get down it on my quad - just.

Chris

[dollythelw]

I have been looking carefully at BMW F650s...

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dont do it

POS

(Panzer on Steroids although the other description would work too)

[GBMUD]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dont do it

POS

(Panzer on Steroids although the other description would work too)

So what would you buy then Jez? I am basing my interest on the fact that BMW has a good reputation for quality, the prices are reasonable second hand and I like the look of them. I actually know very little about them.

Chris

[Timpo]

Sorry to appear cynical - but I think things have gone too far on the whole anti 4x4 bandwagon for it to make a blind bit of difference whether everyone behaves or not. After all - did all the efforts put in over the years to repair lanes, drive in small groups, not upset anyone stop NERC? No of course not.

While I do not condone illegal or damaging driving - it's getting to the point where it's illegal to drive anywhere. If you are going to break the law anyway - it makes less difference whether it is a previously legal, illegal byway or a SSSI?

One could even argue that reporting such people to the police, just makes 4x4's appear in national police stats which gives the anti's something official to quote.

It's the same as the hand gun ban - lots of illegal use of hand guns in the press, so we'll ban the legal ones.

I have to wonder whether if the 4x4 community was generally more militant and drove the lanes before they closed, in large numbers, we would be viewed as the low hanging fruit. Being passive has not worked so far.

The anti urban 4x4 supporters do not seem averse to breaking the odd law to make a point.

Si

Do us a favour Si, before you come in to Wales, drop this thought train, as most routes we call green lanes are UCRs, meaning so far untouched by NERC. And how do you work this statement out:- "it makes less difference whether it is a previously legal, illegal byway or a SSSI" ? Legal byways have not change since NERC intro, no such thing as an illegal byway, and if you damage an SSSI, you need the book throwing at you, as you are ruining work done by lots of user groups and the County Councils, and playing right into the antis hands and causing long term damage to enviromental/ecological hot spots.

I think you need to do some reading and grow up a little. You are not going to help 'our' cause like this, and to put it in print on a public forum is silly.

If your not in a user group based club or organisation, I suggest you should join asap.

Urban 4x4 issues don't enter into this, this is rural. And as you see taggers vandalising the cities walls in the UK, you can see the results of 4x4(and motorcycle) in the countryside.

Timpo.

[VeryDisco]

I think you need to do some reading and grow up a little...

Ouch! I don't believe you know Si do you Timpo?

If you re read the post it doesn't say he agrees with trashing the countryside, and I agree with the point that being passive has not worked so far.

I've approached people playing off the right of way, I've never had a positive response. I've even reported people, but it has made no difference.

I admire anyone who is prepared to fight for the lanes, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[simonr]

Thanks Fi

That saves me flaming Mr Timpo.

Si

[Andy]

those BMW F650s have a good review in this months RiDE. i almost kept my 125 trails thing as a mud toy but decided to wait a bit & buy one with an engine that can cllimb hills!

[treebloke]

Do us a favour Si, before you come in to Wales, drop this thought train, as most routes we call green lanes are UCRs, meaning so far untouched by NERC. And how do you work this statement out:- "it makes less difference whether it is a previously legal, illegal byway or a SSSI" ? Legal byways have not change since NERC intro, no such thing as an illegal byway, and if you damage an SSSI, you need the book throwing at you, as you are ruining work done by lots of user groups and the County Councils, and playing right into the antis hands and causing long term damage to enviromental/ecological hot spots.

I think you need to do some reading and grow up a little. You are not going to help 'our' cause like this, and to put it in print on a public forum is silly.

If your not in a user group based club or organisation, I suggest you should join asap.

Urban 4x4 issues don't enter into this, this is rural. And as you see taggers vandalising the cities walls in the UK, you can see the results of 4x4(and motorcycle) in the countryside.

Timpo.

Timpo, Si R is whats commonly known as a 'townie' is these here parts. Although he is an ok one at that.

Some people may say he is mad, this depends on how much money he has got, if he has a big wedge then he might just be eccentric.

Take his comments with a pinch of salt, I beleive he is currently really busy working on the worlds first water powered engine and his early experiments have failed miserably.

Si R, take a look at the CRAG web site (www.crag-uk.org), there was a meeting today which may alter or at least save the remaining green lanes in Wales. It does pay to keep knockin on the door, it just needs to be the right one.

[VeryDisco]

Thanks Fi

That saves me flaming Mr Timpo.

You know me, little old peace keeper!

You've perfected that anti rambler flame thrower then?

[Timpo]

those BMW F650s have a good review in this months RiDE. i almost kept my 125 trails thing as a mud toy but decided to wait a bit & buy one with an engine that can cllimb hills!

Now Andy, if I was to get a bike to ride the lanes that 4x4s can't. it would be a 250 or 400(450), four stroke, with an electric start. Maybe a Yam WR400, Suz DRZ400 or a Kwak KLR300. But there are other ideal trail bikes, XR250 or 400, DR350, KLX250, TTR250, and even if your up to it, a larger machine, TTR600, KTM525, XR600, etc.

I have at present a DRZ400 and an XR600, but I choose the lighter bike (DRZ) when the weather has been bad, as there is usually a lot of lifting of the machines when stuck in mud, and you soon get worn out.

There are many routes that are not accessible by 4x4 and a trail bike is the ideal answer to this. On a good day it is possible to get a 140mile ride including some of the most technical lanes in Wales, some of which aren't shown on modern OS maps...pure nectar!

Timpo.

[Dark green 90]

Steve - remember the ramblers season ends in mid Feb, mind you I think next year you dont need a game licence for them though so that should save £4 a year...

Best £4 you will ever spend!

[trainspotter]

I don't think anyone gives a toss about this really. The police couldn't care less and you ain't gonna stop illegal off roading by ringing those helmets up and telling them someone has been very naughty.

We've heard it all before about educating the illegal off roaders and how it will affect us etc if we don't educate them.

What happened?- we lost our lanes anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trainspotter]

I agree with simonr. We didn't do enough to save our lanes by not being more forceful and vocal.

I think Timpo must have his head up his **** if he thinks losing his lanes ain't gonna happen in Wales

[treebloke]

I don't think anyone gives a toss about this really. The police couldn't care less and you ain't gonna stop illegal off roading by ringing those helmets up and telling them someone has been very naughty.

We've heard it all before about educating the illegal off roaders and how it will affect us etc if we don't educate them.

What happened?- we lost our lanes anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess what you mean is, you do not 'give a toss'.

The police do care, if you think they dont, then go drive a well known RUPP full of red socks and bobbles.

We did not lose all our lanes we lost RUPPs, there are still thousands of lanes and also many RUPPs which can be saved through user evidence, the five year rule and people like Timpo.

Shropshire has a lot of BOATs, ORPAs and UCRs. There are only four TRO'd and CRAG is working with the County Council to open these up altough it takes time.

[simonr]

I guess what you mean is, you do not 'give a toss'.

The police do care, if you think they dont, then go drive a well known RUPP full of red socks and bobbles.

We did not lose all our lanes we lost RUPPs, there are still thousands of lanes and also many RUPPs which can be saved through user evidence, the five year rule and people like Timpo.

Shropshire has a lot of BOATs, ORPAs and UCRs. There are only four TRO'd and CRAG is working with the County Council to open these up altough it takes time.

I as it happens care a great deal about this issue - and that was the motivation for my original post.

I just think that the touchy-feely-hug-a-rambler ethos has not helped so far. The reason the police care if you drive up a rupp full of ramblers is they are militant - there will be a dozen phone calls to the police and they know they will be backed up with letters to the chief constable, MP and press if they do not act.

Politicians and the press will listen to whoever shouts loudest. We as a group have been a lot less vocal than other countryside groups - and I think a lot of the 4x4 community feel that they are in the wrong by challenging legislation. Much better to keep your head down and show them how responsible we can be.

How did the 'right to roam' bill come about? It was by lobbying, PR and mass trespass on footpaths which the ramblers thought should be legal. The land owners were portrayed as the baddies in the press and ultimately the right to roam was gained.

Things have probably gone too far to reverse the NERC bill and the closure/downgrading of other lanes - but I think we will be squeezed out of what remains on environmental and green grounds in the near future if we dont do something about it.

Out of the groups involved in this, CRAG is the one I see as doing the most good currently - and receiving the right kind of attention for it. they get my support for what it's worth.

Si