pugwash Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ok si i'm not writing a tech on everything you need to know about winch line as i don't actually know anything (apart from the fact that putting a knot into someones plasma the very first time it's used isn't very cool- sorrry tim ) I've looked in tech and can't find anything so can someone who knows answer some questions like: 1. What is plasma- is it a trademark or a generic name for cabling? 2. What is the difference betweent the strand and the cable- ie i know that cables are made from different brand name fibres and it seems that often the way the cable is manufactured is as, if not more, important than the strand itself 3. What are the physical characterstics of plasma- do they all stretch the same amount? are they ALL suseceptible to heat, does sunlight ruin all of them 4. People say wash your winchline- i am sure that this gets the winchline clean but can it have any negative effects? does anyone know for sure. is their a manufacturers approved care "label". i would assume that chandleries would be interested in it. 5. Are there early warning signs of snapping that aren't common knowledge? 6. Shelf life of a rope? 7. are there any reasons why you would want to stay with wire? they resist abrasion much better and give more signs of impending breakage- anything else? 8. are breaking strains of ropes as accurate as winch manufacturers load claims? there are loads and loads of questions i have like this, but does anyone know from first hand sources. if anyone fancies writing a full on rope tech then please don't hesitate. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ok si i'm not writing a tech on everything you need to know about winch line as i don't actually know anything (apart from the fact that putting a knot into someones plasma the very first time it's used isn't very cool- sorrry tim ) I've looked in tech and can't find anything so can someone who knows answer some questions like: 1. What is plasma- is it a trademark or a generic name for cabling? 2. What is the difference betweent the strand and the cable- ie i know that cables are made from different brand name fibres and it seems that often the way the cable is manufactured is as, if not more, important than the strand itself 3. What are the physical characterstics of plasma- do they all stretch the same amount? are they ALL suseceptible to heat, does sunlight ruin all of them 4. People say wash your winchline- i am sure that this gets the winchline clean but can it have any negative effects? does anyone know for sure. is their a manufacturers approved care "label". i would assume that chandleries would be interested in it. 5. Are there early warning signs of snapping that aren't common knowledge? 6. Shelf life of a rope? 7. are there any reasons why you would want to stay with wire? they resist abrasion much better and give more signs of impending breakage- anything else? 8. are breaking strains of ropes as accurate as winch manufacturers load claims? there are loads and loads of questions i have like this, but does anyone know from first hand sources. if anyone fancies writing a full on rope tech then please don't hesitate. Cheers 8. are breaking strains of ropes as accurate as winch manufacturers load claims? the breaking strain of my plasma rope (dynamee from marlow ropes)was greater than 23,000 23k lbs. my poxy 8000lb 8274 broke it 10 minutes after fitting it no knots etc. there fore the answer to 6. Shelf life of a rope? for ever as long as you don't take it off the shelf or 10 mins if you do. 7. are there any reasons why you would want to stay with wire? they resist abrasion much better and give more signs of impending breakage- anything else? having bust 200squids worth of plasma after 10 minutes it seemed bl**dy expensive however now that i can splice it quicker than replacing steel rope it has proved very cost effective. I used to have to change steel at least every (some times twice during) event carrying at least two spare wire ropes in the 110 the plasma just goes on and on just resplice it where it broke and off i go again. it has never broken at the same point and never when used in a straight line. it breaks when pulling at 90 degrees and always about 10 foot from the contact point. ie not caused be abrasion. i can now tell when it is about to break ( i can see it start to stretch) which with steel you can not do. i nolonger have to carry two spare ropes just a biro and some insulating tape paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Sort of on topic My crane driver had a load of tins of cable oil delivered for his Tower crane. So be that I am his boss I relocated a few tins has anyone ever use this stuff on steel winch cables??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 ...1. What is plasma- is it a trademark or a generic name for cabling? 2. What is the difference betweent the strand and the cable- ie i know that cables are made from different brand name fibres and it seems that often the way the cable is manufactured is as, if not more, important than the strand itself ... 1. Plasa is a trade name of a particular manufacturer's 12 plait rope. Not a generic name. It used to be that all of the fibre (a type of polypropylene) used for the synthetic 12 plait ropes we are interested in, was supplied by one German manufacturer to the various companies that build the ropes. The rope companies do not make the raw fibres, but they may apply their own siezing (a coating on the fibres, used to reduce abrasion between fibres during manufacture and use, and for UV resistance). 2. With wire ropes, wires are first twisted together to form a strand, then strands (usually 6) are twisted together to build the rope. Often, there will be more than one wire dia used in a particular strand - this allows a greater metalic area for the rope dia., by having small wires in the gaps between larger wires. For some ropes, triangular shape strands are used (for greater metalic area). Usually the wires are twisted left handed in the strands and the strands are right hand in the rope, but both may be the same hand (called Langs lay) for abrasion resistance in mining ropes (Langs lay has dissadvantage of torque build-up). 2a. With the type of synthetic rope we are discussing, fibres are twisted into strands, which are then plaited to build the rope. 12 strands for 12 plait rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Sort of on topic My crane driver had a load of tins of cable oil delivered for his Tower crane. So be that I am his boss I relocated a few tins has anyone ever use this stuff on steel winch cables??? For a good life, wire ropes need to be lubricated. Many ropes (not winch ropes) have a rope core, which aids lubrication and packing-down of the strands. To be effective, the lubrication needs to get inside the strands, between the wires. The wires in the strands rub against each other when the rope is bent around a drum or sheave, and also as the rope stretches under load. The oil also helps to prevent rusting of black ropes, but the winch ropes we use are galvanised. Galvanised ropes are not used in many critical applications because they can suffer from small surface cracks, which leads to broken wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Cool thanks may as well give him his spray cans back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Cool thanks may as well give him his spray cans back are you mad Jules? think how much fun it could be round the office with only a disposible lighter and a can of that stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 How stupid of me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 2. With wire ropes, wires are first twisted together to form a strand, then strands (usually 6) are twisted together to build the rope from the bible old but top link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 If I could find a decent scource I would go back to internal lubricated steel wire. Not galve aircraft control cable which is carp, but the old style soft weave steel with a greased cord down the center. This is what all commercial winches used to have fitted and is so resistant to abuse it is untrue. As I can't get it, I am happy to use synthetic rope but like Paul, I can splice very quickly now! There are some good questions there Jim, worth asking both Andy T and Diddy Dave for thier answers. They are both very switched on blokes and sell good products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiddler Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 If I could find a decent scource I would go back to internal lubricated steel wire. Not galve aircraft control cable which is carp, but the old style soft weave steel with a greased cord down the center. This is what all commercial winches used to have fitted and is so resistant to abuse it is untrue.As I can't get it, I am happy to use synthetic rope but like Paul, I can splice very quickly now! I buy my 8mm fibrecore from Rope Services in Tipton, West Midlands. A long way from you, but at least you know it's still available. Tid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ok si i'm not writing a tech on everything you need to know about winch line as i don't actually know anything (apart from the fact that putting a knot into someones plasma the very first time it's used isn't very cool- sorrry tim ) I've looked in tech and can't find anything so can someone who knows answer some questions like: 1. What is plasma- is it a trademark or a generic name for cabling? 2. What is the difference betweent the strand and the cable- ie i know that cables are made from different brand name fibres and it seems that often the way the cable is manufactured is as, if not more, important than the strand itself 3. What are the physical characterstics of plasma- do they all stretch the same amount? are they ALL suseceptible to heat, does sunlight ruin all of them 4. People say wash your winchline- i am sure that this gets the winchline clean but can it have any negative effects? does anyone know for sure. is their a manufacturers approved care "label". i would assume that chandleries would be interested in it. 5. Are there early warning signs of snapping that aren't common knowledge? 6. Shelf life of a rope? 7. are there any reasons why you would want to stay with wire? they resist abrasion much better and give more signs of impending breakage- anything else? 8. are breaking strains of ropes as accurate as winch manufacturers load claims? there are loads and loads of questions i have like this, but does anyone know from first hand sources. if anyone fancies writing a full on rope tech then please don't hesitate. Cheers I will try and answer some of your questions. Firstly the physical properties of any polymer construction (i.e. rope or webbing etc) depends on the actual polymer used, the about of draw put on the individual filament and the actual weave/construction of the rope or webbing Plasma like Dyneema are trade names and refer to the actual filaments which goes into the construction of the ropes. Plasma etc are gel spun UHMWPE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene) which are highly drawn. Drawing of polymers means literally stretching the fibre at elevated temperatures which aligns the molecules/crystals inside the fibres. The result of this is that the physical properties of the polymer filament are altered. In this case the strength and Youngs (Elastic) modulus increases and the extension to failure of the filament decreases. In the case of plasma the extension to failure of a Plasma filament is about 1%. I have never seen a figure for the extension to break of a plasma rope but would guess it would be in the region of 3-5% In comparison a steel wire rope would have an extension to failure of 10-15%. What this means is that a Plasma rope is stronger and stiffer then an equivalent steel rope. A steel rope needs more energy to break then a plasma rope. This means a steel rope is more 'forgiving' under shock load situations. Polyethylene has a melting point of about 125C, polyesters and nylons have melting point in range 230-260C. All polymers strengths decrease with increasing temperature. I would guess that plasma strengths starts to fall dramatically above 70 C Sunlight over time has an effect on all polymers. The effect depends on the amount of UV stabiliser in the polymer and the amount of exposure. If a plasma rope is used reasonably frequently this effect should be discounted as the detrimental effect of use/abuse abrasion and contamination will outweigh any detrimental effect of UV Best way of washing a Plasma rope is probably to anchor it in a fast flowing stream. Do NOT use a pressure washer on a polymer rope. Bung it in a washing machine? Dont tell the wife, don't use washing powder and dont use the hot dry cycle. Shelf life? Keep it dry, cool and in the dark then the shelf life would be ages but is difficult to quantify Hope that helps a bit Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 cheers leeds, great help (just out of interest, if i said "cleantech", would it open a can of worms?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 a can so big you couldn't escape from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 cheers leeds, great help(just out of interest, if i said "cleantech", would it open a can of worms?) Rustworms maybe!!! But definitely O/T Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 cheers leeds, great help(just out of interest, if i said "cleantech", would it open a can of worms?) No... But if you said "Ermintrude" we would open the can of worms, tip them out, stuff you in the can and weld it shut again, crush it under a 50 tonne excavator, burn the can in a 1000 degree furnace and then fire the ashes into outer space Don't go there, pleeeease! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 And then I would come round and shoot you!!!! Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 yeah but i want to see some figures and test results as well as hear some user experiences. don't know why that's such a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 read his advert in LRO then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portal Bob Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi All, Always makes for interesting reading when the subject of synthetic winch lines comes up. Yes - I have a vested interest, so I declare it up front! I am the managing Director of Ruftraks UK Limited, Exclusive Distributor and official importer of Plasma Winch Line for the UK and Europe. Plasma is the registered Trade Mark of Puget Sound Ropes, 1012 Second Street, Anacortes, WA.US of A. You will find all the information on this product within my website at www.ruftraks.co.uk This also contains links to the manufacturers own site with all the technical data available. I have been importing Plasma for 6 years and, during this time, have been involved in all the R & D for its use within the UK. Boy, was that a steep learning curve. If you have any specific questions you want answered please just ask. Just remember, not all synthetic lines used in the UK are Plasma, but such is the price of success, that the generic term for synthetic has tended to be Plasma! Andy Thomlinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 hey andy, i was hoping you would reply. Can you answer any of my questions above or add any useful information? Cheers Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portal Bob Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi Jim, Your questions were:- 1. What is plasma- is it a trademark or a generic name for cabling? Yes - both!. Plasma is the reg trade mark of Puget Sound Ropes, USA. Plasma has become the generic term despite there being a number of synthetic suppliers out there. 2. What is the difference betweent the strand and the cable- ie i know that cables are made from different brand name fibres and it seems that often the way the cable is manufactured is as, if not more, important than the strand itself# I generally call all steel - Cables and all synthetic lines - Strand. The majority of synthetics used are of strand construction, making them easy to splice and suitable for use without a swivle hook as they are not like spun steel. 3. What are the physical characterstics of plasma- do they all stretch the same amount? are they ALL suseceptible to heat, does sunlight ruin all of them. Can't comment on any other makes, but Plasma will strech about 4% just prior to reaching its max breaking strain. 4. People say wash your winchline- i am sure that this gets the winchline clean but can it have any negative effects? does anyone know for sure. is their a manufacturers approved care "label". i would assume that chandleries would be interested in it. Rinse out all the carp in a bucket of water, keep doing it until no more sediment shows - this is the stuff that damages the line. None of the rope manufacturers expected this application with their products and as such have no experience of cleaning it following heavy use. 5. Are there early warning signs of snapping that aren't common knowledge? Simple answer - NO.. Technical answer - YES, The line will harden and, with severe use, damage the individual strands, when one becomes obviously damaged, repair or replace the line! 6. Shelf life of a rope? Good question - If you mean sitting on a shelf, it will outlast you if you keep it in a cool, dry, dark place. If you mean working life then the answer is very different - As with all service parts on a vehicle ( yup winch line is a service part, just like brake pads, oil etc) and should be replaced every 3 to 4 years with minimum usage. If you are a lunatic, winch challenge competitor at the top of your game, I would replace it every 2 or 3 events. Sounds extreme but hey, it is not even the price of a set of half shafts or other normally acceptable breakage parts. 7. are there any reasons why you would want to stay with wire? they resist abrasion much better and give more signs of impending breakage- anything else? Nop! Most of the breakdown and utility companies, also the local authorities are moving towards synthetic from the safety aspects. 8. are breaking strains of ropes as accurate as winch manufacturers load claims? Some are and some are just plain daft! None take into account the use we make of them in this particular application and also the shock loads they are subjected to. All the lines are tested under lab conditions, with no allowance made for dodgy splicing, or very contaminated lines. I have UK test certificates supplied for lines I made up and I am happy with the results for Plasma! Ther are also additional issues concerning extreme angles exiting fairleads and snatchblock diameters, this, I hasten to add is also an issue with steel even more. Hope this helps, Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Thanks andy (and others) andy can you answer a couple of difficult questions objectively for me? where are the differences found between plasma and other types of branded rope, be it dyneema, amsteel etc etc. it is in the type of material itself, it's construction, design? can you get a line made from the same material as plasma which wouldn't be as good? is there any reason why you can't just go down to a boat yard and buy a roll of 12mm cable? where does most of the strength from a rope come from- is it the inner or outer layer of rope, or both? does rope benefit from an installation process- ie prestretching like with wire all that kind of stuff? someone a while ago recommended that unwinding rope completely and putting it on the other way round (so that hook end becomes winch end etc etc) could possibly be a benefit- is this true? what can physically weaken a rope- knots? passing over sharp corners? does the fluffing of rope actually signify a weakening of the rope or is it just unsightly? is there an accepted method of working out the breaking strain of rope you should use for your vehicle? ie a 2000kg vehicle with a 12,000lb hydraulic winch may need a different strength than a 2000kg vehicle with a 8000ln electric winch. buying a cable that "may" be big enough, and then hanging off it down a sheer drop is a little risky IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portal Bob Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hi Jim, You don't half ask some corkers!!!! andy can you answer a couple of difficult questions objectively for me? where are the differences found between plasma and other types of branded rope, be it dyneema, amsteel etc etc. it is in the type of material itself, it's construction, design? can you get a line made from the same material as plasma which wouldn't be as good? is there any reason why you can't just go down to a boat yard and buy a roll of 12mm cable? OK, No easy answer with this one, but I will try. Plasma dyneema & amsteel all come from similar base products, however, this is where things change. Plasma is produced from Honywell Spectra and then subjected to a unique process to give it additional strength, details are secret. The net result is a soft, pliable finished product with extraordinary capabilities. There are several different grades of all the base products commercially available from any number of sources, all have quite different characteristics, breaking strains etc. So unless you know for certain the product you are buying and it comes with a certificate of conformance from the maker, be very cautious! where does most of the strength from a rope come from- is it the inner or outer layer of rope, or both? All of the 12 strand braided lines are hollow core ropes - if you push the rope from each end it will form a hollow centre, so, the strength all lives in the 12 strands - no core! does rope benefit from an installation process- ie prestretching like with wire all that kind of stuff? someone a while ago recommended that unwinding rope completely and putting it on the other way round (so that hook end becomes winch end etc etc) could possibly be a benefit- is this true? Two questions here - greedy sod! 1. Pre-stretching, this is only required when you plan to use the line at its maximum strain from the get go, normally within industrial applications or during a break test. Even the 8mm Plasma exceeds most electric winches at 11,500 NBS. 2. Reversing a line will prolong the life of the line as it is usually the first 20/30 ft of line that suffers damage during the winching action. The last 20/30 ft of line, next to the drum, sees very little action and is normally completely undamaged, hence ideal for reversing the line to extend life. what can physically weaken a rope- knots? passing over sharp corners? does the fluffing of rope actually signify a weakening of the rope or is it just unsightly? Tree questions this time! 1. Knots will reduce the strength of a line by about 50/60% - ouch, don't go there! 2. Sharps cut lines, this includes rocks, banks, posts and any instance of severe rubbing actions. 3. Fluffing has no effect on the strength of the Plasma, in fact it can form limited protection. is there an accepted method of working out the breaking strain of rope you should use for your vehicle? ie a 2000kg vehicle with a 12,000lb hydraulic winch may need a different strength than a 2000kg vehicle with a 8000ln electric winch. buying a cable that "may" be big enough, and then hanging off it down a sheer drop is a little risky IMO. 1. No, I usually ask a number of questions of a potential buyer as follows:- What sort of winch do you have? - fittings, pulling power questions What sort of vehicle do you have - potential shock load question. What do you plan to use the vehicle for? - weekend warrior, green laning or lunatic winching challenge. This one will dictate the gauge recommended as I don't want to put anyones life or vehicle on the line! You also raise a good point - Not one of the winch manufacturers would allow any of the recovery products to be used for lifting - it is a big No No as a whole new set of regulations would have to be applied. So when does an incline/cliff face become a lift? A question for you!!! In summary. I will suggest the best line for the job if the potential buyer is honest with me - I will even refuse to supply if I think the incorrect gauge is being fitted to a winch. Can I have a rest now!!! Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 andy, thanks for taking the time to answer these so fully- much appreciated. i don't think i have any more questions at the moment but is there anything else important which has been missed? if i get a sec i might condense all of this post into one "tech" type post. thanks again, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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