BIG DAN T Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Borg and Beck were sold a couple of years ago and split in two. The old (good) B and B stuff is now sold as A P Driveline. Anything you buy now as Borg and Beck is made by another company altogether and in my experiance is very poor quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Borg and Beck were sold a couple of years ago and split in two. The old (good) B and B stuff is now sold as A P Driveline. Anything you buy now as Borg and Beck is made by another company altogether and in my experiance is very poor quality. Interesting - that maybe explains a fair bit, gald my B&B is 5 yrs old then Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsr341 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 i run a paddle clutch in my 300bhp lancer (standard clutch gives up very quickly) and as long as you stick with a 6 paddle you should be able to slip it slightly (usally a bit noisey) dont be tempted with a 3paddle , they are like switches either on or off , dont know if they do them for landrovers but i run an Alcon , made in the uk and as far as i know do custom work , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Borg and Beck were sold a couple of years ago and split in two. The old (good) B and B stuff is now sold as A P Driveline. Anything you buy now as Borg and Beck is made by another company altogether and in my experiance is very poor quality. The history is a bit more complicated: - about 70 something years ago Borg & Beck (B&B) was founded, same place where it is today, at Leamington - 1967 - BBA Group was founded - Automotive Products (AP UK) being part of the group - AP UK bought B&B - 1996 - BBA group sells AP UK and another group is formed: Automotive Products Group ( from AP UK + AP Iberica + AP Italia) - at some point in time, don't know exactly, Borg & Beck becomes a brand name and this is what it remained all along this time: a brand name with an associated license to use that name - 2000 - Automotive Products Group sells all their distribution business, both for clutches and for brakes (Lockheed) to DELPHI. The Borg & Beck brand name becomes also property of DELPHI - AFAIK DELPHI started selling the clutches with the big B&B brand name on the box but there's a Delphi logo in a corner - what I know for sure is that Delphi rebranded everything they could except the brand names they bought (Delphi Lockheed being another example). - 2002 - AP Group sells 2 of its 3 companies manufacturing clutches, AP UK and AP Iberica to a group of US investors and a new company is founded: DRIVELINE HOLDING. So AP UK becomes AP Driveline Technology - end of 2005 - Delphi retires from the clutch business but, strangely, decides to keep the B&B brand name (licence) even they are not using it. - 2006 (not sure) Magal Engineering buys AP Driveline Technologies. All this time up until the end of 2005 AP Driveline Technologies (or whatever their name was) built the clutches under the Delphi owned Borg & Beck license. Now that the license is dead but not buried, AP DT manufactures and sells the clutches under their own name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 There was 15mm of the rod adjusted the wrong way So I've reset the pedal and the free play and will give that a try thanks all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chris_mayer Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hi guys, just had a read through this thread as i am struggling to find a good clutch for my 90. I ran a standard plate in my 200tdi/lt77 combo for over 12 months and was perfectly fine. This however is when i was running 36.5" fedimas (simex copies) and 4.11 gearing. I am now going to be running 4.88 gearing and 44" boggers so my weakpoint in the driveline is going to be the clutch. I am liking the sound of a paddle clutch but have never driven anything with one fitted. This vehicle is obviously not for road use at all, but i would like to know how it is going to handle when driving steep but slow and twisty sections where you are climbing over things and clutch control is going to be quite important to keep a smooth constant speed without going forward too fast or the vehicle wanting to roll back. Granted a lot of this will be affected with me having the right gearing set up. Is it worth looking at an ap clutch? I rung my motaparts supplier and they said all borg and becker clutches for 90, 110 and 130 are all the same part number now and going by whats been said on this thread so far they probably want staying clear of for what i doing. I do realise that having a heavier duty clutch is going to put some fair amount more stress on the gbox and tbox, but that is something i am going to have to live with until i can be persuaded to go for a zf24 and a bigger engine! Any help appreciated Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hi guys, just had a read through this thread as i am struggling to find a good clutch for my 90. I ran a standard plate in my 200tdi/lt77 combo for over 12 months and was perfectly fine. This however is when i was running 36.5" fedimas (simex copies) and 4.11 gearing. I am now going to be running 4.88 gearing and 44" boggers so my weakpoint in the driveline is going to be the clutch.I am liking the sound of a paddle clutch but have never driven anything with one fitted. This vehicle is obviously not for road use at all, but i would like to know how it is going to handle when driving steep but slow and twisty sections where you are climbing over things and clutch control is going to be quite important to keep a smooth constant speed without going forward too fast or the vehicle wanting to roll back. Granted a lot of this will be affected with me having the right gearing set up. Is it worth looking at an ap clutch? I rung my motaparts supplier and they said all borg and becker clutches for 90, 110 and 130 are all the same part number now and going by whats been said on this thread so far they probably want staying clear of for what i doing. I do realise that having a heavier duty clutch is going to put some fair amount more stress on the gbox and tbox, but that is something i am going to have to live with until i can be persuaded to go for a zf24 and a bigger engine! Any help appreciated Chris 6 paddfle with centre springs ONLY do not as said get an unsprung one, or a 3 paddle or a HC Clamping cover . With a std cover and a 6 paddler sprung you'll be fine with a few adjustments to driving stylee, the more you try to slip it - and make it hot - and give less time to cool the more clampy it gets, but yes you can control as per a normal clutch, but only for so long, then it needs to cool a tad - which doesn't take too long, its a matter of compromise, but not as much as you would think, people have driven mine and do not know it has a 6p sprung cermaic paddle plate etc nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I have only scanned a few posts so sorry if this has already been said I've had this conversation before a few years ago There is nothing wrong with your clutch set up Your diff ratio is too high until you do something about it you will still wear clutches massively no matter how much you spend on better quality. Remember the drop box verses low ratio 4.1's / 4.75 R&P...... My auto box clutches are never struggling to work like that did on standard gearing diffs Fit a set of 4.1 R&P and all you clutch problems will disappear I garntee it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks Jules but the last clutch lasted 50k with lots and lots ofoffroad work this one I think was very badly adjusted by me plus I have a crawler box so lower diff ratios would see the car not actually moving in 1st it would be so slow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hi Tony If the adjustment doesn't help, go down the easy route and fit an auto Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks Jules but the last clutch lasted 50k with lots and lots ofoffroad workthis one I think was very badly adjusted by me plus I have a crawler box so lower diff ratios would see the car not actually moving in 1st it would be so slow I see your point but I had this problem with Auto boxes getting very hot very fast and it was the reduced diffs which cured it but the damage I would suggest is being done in high ratio and not in low or off road. But on road pull away and the tiny extra but of slip you have to give to pull off smoothly with the 35" tyres running through 3.5 diffs. I could be wrong but as the tyre size increases say 33 to 35 the rotational load to turn the shaft increases exponentially Unless you did 50,000 miles on Simex or the first 40,000 was on you previous tyres and the rest on the bigger simex also my LSE technically on its 35" tyres and its 4.75 diffs, The engine revs and gear at 30mph is the same now as it was when it left the factory on 205/16. so my speedo is spot on believe it or not (my 35's are actually 34 so I'm a tiny but under geared) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Tony, Are you saying that the push rod was adjusted so that the master cylinder had 15mm of preload ? …….. if yes, than that will most likely be the cause of the problem. It depends on how much wear you have put on the clutch with it adjusted like that…….. I never bother with the measurements, I just use hand pressure on the pedal and adjust to free play to my liking Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 i run a paddle clutch in my 300bhp lancer (standard clutch gives up very quickly) and as long as you stick with a 6 paddle you should be able to slip it slightly (usally a bit noisey) dont be tempted with a 3paddle , they are like switches either on or off , dont know if they do them for landrovers but i run an Alcon , made in the uk and as far as i know do custom work , as a slight stray,, Sure TC won't mind Also run a Alcon paddle clutch last about 2 events Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Clutch pedal adjustment Ian the Left hand nut of the two marked number 3 was 15mm towards the cylinder from where I have now adjusted I to using the method described car has done approx 300miles like it maybe less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Wear over 300 miles will be minimal as I suspect it was only slipping under high load...........it is quite possible it has only began to slip as the plate is now fully bedded in .................. Now that you have the adjustment correct, take it out and get it warm, then try a few large hills in high gears and see what happens........... Also you could use a slight incline, change up a cog or two and then floor it.................. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Cheers Ian if it is ok great if not never mind I have an alternative on route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 First chance to road test it and the result: The clutch is knackered slipping under anything other than mild revs. So a question: I guess I need to replace the Cover as well as the plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Best to replace friction plate, pressure cover & release bearing & if there's any left one of Les's modded levers. Then you know everything is good & it should last longer than the last one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderman Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Yep , Change the lot Tony , The Clutch cover , plate ,bearing ,fork even the clip that holds the pushod to the fork , Any less is just false economy . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Cheers Fork is one of Les's creations I'll get the other parts ready for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reads90 Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Thanks Jules but the last clutch lasted 50k with lots and lots ofoffroad workthis one I think was very badly adjusted by me plus I have a crawler box so lower diff ratios would see the car not actually moving in 1st it would be so slow Tony have you done 50,000 miles in three years. cause i could have sworn we had this chat three years ago when i put my 4.7 ring and pinons in and you put your low box in. That was all started because of the same problem that you have now we had long decsuions as to which was better . Seems a bit of deja vu to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Things have moved on since you were here Ali this clutch has lasted 300miles so I'm assuming some thing else is wrong (oil contamination/heat) the first clutch was installed by the supplying dealer the 90 had 98k on the clock it now has 146k the current clutch has covered 300miles does that cover it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Hi Tony, I admit that I haven't read the whole thread in detail, so forgive me if it has been covered earlier. The only other thing I can think of is the possibility of a failure in the clutch hose internally. Occasionally the hose can delaminate on the inside, and the delamination acts like a one way valve. After you press the clutch and then release the pedal, not all the pressure in the slave cylinder is released back to the master cylinder if the delaminated hose obstructs the flow. The result is that the clutch doesn't clamp tightly as there is still some pressure on the pressure plate. It is a little unlikely, but it has happened to me once, and I know it has happened to other vehicles. Can happen to clutch or brake hoses. Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted March 5, 2008 Author Share Posted March 5, 2008 Cheers I will check that to before pulling the gearbox out again. the clutch engages and seems ok but if at any speed in higher gears you just touch the clutch pedal it slips badly according to revs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 well i have read the whole blinking thread and still dont understand how to adjust the push rod free play to 1.5mm despite Ralph, Matt and Ian suggestions. My clutch doesnt slip but bits close to the top so was thinking of adjusting it, i just dont get how you know where to set the lock nuts and then set the 1.5mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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