DefcoL Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I have been part of an ongoing debate about responsibilities of driver and winch person (M/f). many differ in their views and who should listen to whom. Although it can be very amusing to listen to some of the teams, their are three main areas of debate. 1/ in single or team entry event who directs who? 2/ Who is ultimately responsible for safe negotiation of sections 3/ As marshals differ in their approach what are the rolls of the marshals To some these question may seem self evident, for others it could be very useful to have an understanding of general practice. getting this right may greatly improve safety so please give your opinion and reasons . Defcol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 1/ in single or team entry event who directs who? Does that mean you're talking to yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If you have a good understanding with your co-driver/navigator/winch person, this shouldn't be an issue. I for one have blind faith in my co, which doesn't mean I never question his directions, but after a good explanation, we always come to an agreement. So should it go wrong one day, the blame will be on both of us. In the end, the driver has to take the decision, based on all the information he has available, for a very large part meaning the directions of the co-driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 As a driver I've always been told to stay in the car and drive, that's your job. The winchman does the rest entirely. In the event of a two car team with two winchmen, one winchman should defer to the other so that there is a clear leader. The marshall is there to ensure that the rules of the event are followed and that activity in his area takes place safely. He is also liaison with the event management in the event of accident and the need for support. My take Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Having Driven and Co-Driven in both single car teams, and multi car ones, I would say that Mo has it spot on. If the driver doesn't trust the co-driver, and is always second guessing, then everything takes twice as long. If the driver is trying to direct the winching, it also dosn't work. The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too... Very true! We often change places as well, to get a good feeling of both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers I defer to the adult - my job is to turn the round thing and watch the view change, if theres a view malfunction I report back to the adult and they make it better, IMO it can only work if theres total and utter trust, I know he's never going to do something purposely bad so if it goes pete tong theres no shouting - its just something that happened and not his fault (most likely my fault anyhow ) - its a team sport and we will deal with whatever happens. If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions how far and how fast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I have been part of an ongoing debate about responsibilities of driver and winch person (M/f).many differ in their views and who should listen to whom. Although it can be very amusing to listen to some of the teams, their are three main areas of debate. 1/ in single or team entry event who directs who? 2/ Who is ultimately responsible for safe negotiation of sections 3/ As marshals differ in their approach what are the rolls of the marshals To some these question may seem self evident, for others it could be very useful to have an understanding of general practice. getting this right may greatly improve safety so please give your opinion and reasons . Defcol Nothing is that clearly defined ……………………….. you just have to work well as a TEAM …………….. generally the best teams just know instinctively what each other will do in any given circumstance……………… Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Jez the last lines are bluddy funny I have had a few co drivers (must be me) but th ones I get on with are the non shouty ones I know what a cloud is and telling me is enough Mike my current co-driver and more importantly a mate whom I trust implicitly the last event we turned the 90 over, no drama just turned the engine off I thought "right lets get it back on its wheels" Mike suggested I leave it there whilst he finds his camera Luckily we opted for my plan and continued onwards. Bottom line if it all goes dreadfully wrong and we cause real damage I know for a fact Mike will help me fix it again come what may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Mo sums it up well. Also I found having a co-driver who was of a more cautious disposition than myself (and who's judgement I trusted) meant that I could confidently follow his diretions with worrying what he was putting my or my truck through. And it usually resulted in much less damage than when I was doing my own thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 You must have someone who you trust implicitly. To do as the co-driver says without questioning his judgement. As has been said it is described as a team/us/we/together. There is no "I" in team but there is a YOU in **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Doesn't work like that, There's no "this is your job, This is mine" Theres no black and white whose responsible for what as the two roles will always have an amount of overlap and situations are always so differnt and changing. It either works itself out or it doesn't and if your debateing who should be doing what then there's ya problem. The co drivers never going to be in the right place all the time, The drivers not gona get it right all the time. . You need to adapt quickly to whatever your confronted with, Work well as a team and have an ability to know what each other are thinking without them saying anything. Marshals shouldn't be doing anything other than making sure your within the rules and not doing anything dangerous. Even if your going about things in the wrong way aslong as its safe and inside the rules set out by the organisers they should let you get on with it. If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault, Usually bad spotting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault, Usually bad spotting I think that sums up the whole affair quite nicely Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm not biting Bast**d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I'm not biting Your not biting, Usually your not looking................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefcoL Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 Marshals shouldn't be doing anything other than making sure your within the rules and not doing anything dangerous. Even if your going about things in the wrong way aslong as its safe and inside the rules set out by the organisers they should let you get on with it.If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault, A viewpoint that I totally agree with... I'm not biting .....Bast**d Mark a good hard bitchman gets the job done You must have someone who you trust implicitly. To do as the co-driver says without questioning his judgement. communication with understanding is a key point And it usually resulted in much less damage than when I was doing my own thing been there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefcoL Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 I have had a few co drivers (must be me)but th ones I get on with are the non shouty ones I know what a cloud is and telling me is enough I find it easier to hear the "non shouty ones" as their directions seem better worked out the best teams just know instinctively what each other will do practice practice practice will help to achieve that, but hard to find a constantly available winchman theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions how far and how fast? :rofl: do you wear cycle clips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefcoL Posted April 16, 2008 Author Share Posted April 16, 2008 Having Driven and Co-Driven in both single car teams, and multi car ones, I would say that Mo has it spot on.If the driver doesn't trust the co-driver, and is always second guessing, then everything takes twice as long. If the driver is trying to direct the winching, it also dosn't work. The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too... totally agree In the event of a two car team with two winchmen, one winchman should defer to the other so that there is a clear leader. very practical and expedient although; some seem to thrive on the squabbling, maybe its their way of releasing pent up frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Turner Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 although;some seem to thrive on the squabbling, Work's for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The drivers not gona get it right all the time. . NSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Everyone is different, the way people do things is different. Trying to create a formula is silly. What you need to ask yourself as a driver is, can i listen? can i be told? Buy owning the vehicle most already feel a one upmanship to your co driver.................FACT This you must over come. If you are opinionated and loud you need to learn to be quiet, thoughtful and never shout in anger (but maybe in danger ) You must learn together and realise that you are both inexperinced and will find situations where you both will get it wrong. Remeber that backwards is the new forwards in some situations and that winching early can save hours in the long run. A good co driver/ driver relationship does not mean that you want to go drinking with the guy next week. it is one of mutual respect and understanding and being able to stop and laugh at each other There are no rules to this, just common sense. But the best way to learn is to get out there and enjoy it. If your not smiling when you get home you did something wrong Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 thoughtful and never shout in anger (but maybe in danger )Jim Says you! What would you know any way.....Cricket.....the gentlemans sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Jez the last lines are bluddy funny He's not joking though, I've seen it 1st hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 What would you know any way.....Cricket.....the gentlemans sport Something else the Welsh will never understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers I defer to the adult - my job is to turn the round thing and watch the view change, if theres a view malfunction I report back to the adult and they make it better, IMO it can only work if theres total and utter trust, I know he's never going to do something purposely bad so if it goes pete tong theres no shouting - its just something that happened and not his fault (most likely my fault anyhow ) - its a team sport and we will deal with whatever happens. If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions how far and how fast? That's pretty much how I saw it when I was challenging, also it the same when racing the co-driver although I call mine ballast is still IMHO just as important, I like having a co-driver to push me on and I do rely on pace notes even when called from what they see. My wife used to co-drive for me and her competitive edge would keep me going no matter what was happening to the truck whether it was racing or challenging but I'm very competitive anyway. If you hadn't already noticed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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