winch challenges

[DefcoL]

I have been part of an ongoing debate about responsibilities of driver and winch person (M/f).

many differ in their views and who should listen to whom.

Although it can be very amusing to listen to some of the teams,

their are three main areas of debate.

1/ in single or team entry event who directs who?

2/ Who is ultimately responsible for safe negotiation of sections

3/ As marshals differ in their approach what are the rolls of the marshals

To some these question may seem self evident, for others it could be very useful to have an understanding of general practice.

getting this right may greatly improve safety so please give your opinion and reasons .

Defcol

[Guest diesel_jim]

1/ in single or team entry event who directs who?

Does that mean you're talking to yourself?

[Escape]

If you have a good understanding with your co-driver/navigator/winch person, this shouldn't be an issue.

I for one have blind faith in my co, which doesn't mean I never question his directions, but after a good explanation, we always come to an agreement. So should it go wrong one day, the blame will be on both of us. In the end, the driver has to take the decision, based on all the information he has available, for a very large part meaning the directions of the co-driver.

[Mo Murphy]

As a driver I've always been told to stay in the car and drive, that's your job. The winchman does the rest entirely.

In the event of a two car team with two winchmen, one winchman should defer to the other so that there is a clear leader.

The marshall is there to ensure that the rules of the event are followed and that activity in his area takes place safely. He is also liaison with the event management in the event of accident and the need for support.

My take

Mo

[Mark]

Having Driven and Co-Driven in both single car teams, and multi car ones, I would say that Mo has it spot on.

If the driver doesn't trust the co-driver, and is always second guessing, then everything takes twice as long. If the driver is trying to direct the winching, it also dosn't work.

The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too...

[Escape]

The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too...

Very true! We often change places as well, to get a good feeling of both sides.

[dollythelw]

theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers

I defer to the adult - my job is to turn the round thing and watch the view change, if theres a view malfunction I report back to the adult and they make it better, IMO it can only work if theres total and utter trust, I know he's never going to do something purposely bad so if it goes pete tong theres no shouting - its just something that happened and not his fault (most likely my fault anyhow ) - its a team sport and we will deal with whatever happens. If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions

how far and how fast?

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I have been part of an ongoing debate about responsibilities of driver and winch person (M/f).

many differ in their views and who should listen to whom.

Although it can be very amusing to listen to some of the teams,

their are three main areas of debate.

1/ in single or team entry event who directs who?

2/ Who is ultimately responsible for safe negotiation of sections

3/ As marshals differ in their approach what are the rolls of the marshals

To some these question may seem self evident, for others it could be very useful to have an understanding of general practice.

getting this right may greatly improve safety so please give your opinion and reasons .

Defcol

Nothing is that clearly defined ……………………….. you just have to work well as a TEAM …………….. generally the best teams just know instinctively what each other will do in any given circumstance………………

Ian

[white90]

Jez the last lines are bluddy funny

I have had a few co drivers (must be me)

but th ones I get on with are the non shouty ones

I know what a cloud is and telling me is enough

Mike my current co-driver and more importantly a mate whom I trust implicitly

the last event we turned the 90 over,

no drama just turned the engine off

I thought "right lets get it back on its wheels" Mike suggested I leave it there whilst he finds his camera

Luckily we opted for my plan and continued onwards.

Bottom line if it all goes dreadfully wrong and we cause real damage I know for a fact Mike will help me fix it again

come what may.

[Mark90]

Mo sums it up well.

Also I found having a co-driver who was of a more cautious disposition than myself (and who's judgement I trusted) meant that I could confidently follow his diretions with worrying what he was putting my or my truck through. And it usually resulted in much less damage than when I was doing my own thing

[Guest WALFY]

You must have someone who you trust implicitly. To do as the co-driver says without questioning his judgement. As has been said it is described as a team/us/we/together.

There is no "I" in team but there is a YOU in ****

[Steve 90]

Doesn't work like that, There's no "this is your job, This is mine" Theres no black and white whose responsible for what as the two roles will always have an amount of overlap and situations are always so differnt and changing. It either works itself out or it doesn't and if your debateing who should be doing what then there's ya problem.

The co drivers never going to be in the right place all the time, The drivers not gona get it right all the time. . You need to adapt quickly to whatever your confronted with, Work well as a team and have an ability to know what each other are thinking without them saying anything.

Marshals shouldn't be doing anything other than making sure your within the rules and not doing anything dangerous. Even if your going about things in the wrong way aslong as its safe and inside the rules set out by the organisers they should let you get on with it.

If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault, Usually bad spotting

[Mo Murphy]

If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault, Usually bad spotting

I think that sums up the whole affair quite nicely

Mo

[Orgasmic Farmer]

I'm not biting

Bast**d

[Steve 90]

I'm not biting

Your not biting, Usually your not looking.................

[DefcoL]

Marshals shouldn't be doing anything other than making sure your within the rules and not doing anything dangerous. Even if your going about things in the wrong way aslong as its safe and inside the rules set out by the organisers they should let you get on with it.If something does go wrong tho its ALWAYS the co drivers fault,

A viewpoint that I totally agree with...

I'm not biting .....Bast**d

Mark a good hard bitchman gets the job done

You must have someone who you trust implicitly. To do as the co-driver says without questioning his judgement.

communication with understanding is a key point

And it usually resulted in much less damage than when I was doing my own thing

been there

[DefcoL]

I have had a few co drivers (must be me)

but th ones I get on with are the non shouty ones

I know what a cloud is and telling me is enough

I find it easier to hear the "non shouty ones" as their directions seem better worked out

the best teams just know instinctively what each other will do

practice practice practice will help to achieve that, but hard to find a constantly available winchman

theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers

If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions

how far and how fast?

:rofl: do you wear cycle clips

[DefcoL]

Having Driven and Co-Driven in both single car teams, and multi car ones, I would say that Mo has it spot on.

If the driver doesn't trust the co-driver, and is always second guessing, then everything takes twice as long. If the driver is trying to direct the winching, it also dosn't work.

The best co-drivers need to be just that imho. They need to have driven a similar car in a similar situation to know how to direct the driver. Equally, the driver needs to know what co-driver/winch guy is trying to achieve, so really needs to have some experience of that side too...

totally agree

In the event of a two car team with two winchmen, one winchman should defer to the other so that there is a clear leader.

very practical and expedient

although;

some seem to thrive on the squabbling, maybe its their way of releasing pent up frustration.

[Adrian Turner]

although;

some seem to thrive on the squabbling,

Work's for us

[JST]

The drivers not gona get it right all the time. .

NSS

[D9OSV]

Everyone is different, the way people do things is different.

Trying to create a formula is silly.

What you need to ask yourself as a driver is, can i listen? can i be told?

Buy owning the vehicle most already feel a one upmanship to your co driver.................FACT

This you must over come.

If you are opinionated and loud you need to learn to be quiet, thoughtful and never shout in anger (but maybe in danger )

You must learn together and realise that you are both inexperinced and will find situations where you both will get it wrong.

Remeber that backwards is the new forwards in some situations and that winching early can save hours in the long run.

A good co driver/ driver relationship does not mean that you want to go drinking with the guy next week. it is one of mutual respect and understanding and being able to stop and laugh at each other

There are no rules to this, just common sense.

But the best way to learn is to get out there and enjoy it.

If your not smiling when you get home you did something wrong

Jim

[Steve 90]

thoughtful and never shout in anger (but maybe in danger )

Jim

Says you!

What would you know any way.....Cricket.....the gentlemans sport

[FridgeFreezer]

Jez the last lines are bluddy funny

He's not joking though, I've seen it 1st hand

[D9OSV]

What would you know any way.....Cricket.....the gentlemans sport

Something else the Welsh will never understand

[jules]

theres only room in a cab for one brain - and thats definately not the drivers

I defer to the adult - my job is to turn the round thing and watch the view change, if theres a view malfunction I report back to the adult and they make it better, IMO it can only work if theres total and utter trust, I know he's never going to do something purposely bad so if it goes pete tong theres no shouting - its just something that happened and not his fault (most likely my fault anyhow ) - its a team sport and we will deal with whatever happens. If Kim tells me to drive off a cliff I will only ask two questions

how far and how fast?

That's pretty much how I saw it when I was challenging, also it the same when racing the co-driver although I call mine ballast is still IMHO just as important, I like having a co-driver to push me on and I do rely on pace notes even when called from what they see. My wife used to co-drive for me and her competitive edge would keep me going no matter what was happening to the truck whether it was racing or challenging but I'm very competitive anyway.

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