OT (also "ish") Rising fuel costs

[samtope]

I bought an electric scooter! £1000, will pay for itself in 5/6 months. 8 hour charge, 8 pence, 40 miles. Fine for work, not very cool but I get to to keep the landy which also pays for itself in the amount of fire wood it collects. Find the 'E go scooter' on firebox.com.

[simonr]

Is this Wood-gas like the pictures I have seen of taxis in WWII Paris with huge gasbags on the top? I always wondered how that worked.

Partly! Some people filled the bags with coal gas from the mains. Generally they seemed to be waxed bed sheets which held gas in pertty well.

Wood Gas is generated in the same way as you make charcoal. You heat up wood in the abcence of oxygen (there needs to be some, but not a lot). The heat drives out the moisture and vapourises the wood-tar. The wood then burns, but in a low oxygen environment, gives off mostly carbon monoxide - which will also burn to produce carbon dioxide.

The wood burning / charring is what provides the heat to keep the process going.

There are several systems about, but in my opinion the best are the ones with a hopper feed at the top and fire in the bottom burning upwards. as the wood finally turns to ash, it falls through the grate alowing more wood to fall in from the hopper. It needs some vibration to keep the whole thing going - so use in a vehicle is ideal.

Because it takes upwards of 10 mins to start producing gas from cold, then continues to produce for a while after you stop. a bag or other storage is a good plan. you can light the fire and drive away with the reserve in the bag/tank which is replenished when you let it go out at the end of the journey.

They are/were mostly started using an oily rag in the fire box - but I guess you could be more technical - maybe using some of the storred gas and electric ignition.

The process produced quite a lot of water - so you need a good condenser so it does not fill up your engine!

More info here

Si

[waveydave]

Been running on SVO for a few years but now thats becomeing a waste of time as Its only 20p less a litre than dino, unless i do a long run that is. Trips from Hampshire to Yorkshire are still worth it 'just'.

Considering driving my disco to Parliment Square and leave it there burning.

Saw some 2wd buggies that look like fun the other day road legal 100mph 2 seats look capable to cope with green laning and some comp use. Might just do something along those lines for my off road fix. Sort out the water proofing and load carreing ablitys along with a couple of winches should do the trick nicely.

F the gov

[2drdan]

I get about 28 mpg out of the 110 but that is a 1997 CSW so it will go in favour of an '03 TD5 Discovery as I have to drive into the LEZ every day for work. (considering the impending doom of 2010..) I'm lucky that at this moment in time this is going to be financially viable but 12 months ago and probably 12 ahead it wouldn't be !!!

I have a motorbike but that is also going......I need to replace ALL of my kit for this coming winter which will cost the best part of a £1000. I have a 30 mile each way commute to work and need some decent kit for winter!!! The bike does 45 mpg and as such would only regain its running costs of fuel/purchase/insurance/kit after plus three years riding it every day to work...

At the moment I have decided to get down to the one vehicle, one set of costs with a comfy safe drive. The fuel costs are supplimented by Costco veg oil at 88per litre in a 50/50 mix with diesel. (this will have to change for winter)

As with everyone else, over time, I have to face the fact that the vehicle I love to own and drive will cost me more.

My gripe with this situation is the fact that it has become extremely difficult to CHOOSE a Landrover or other similar vehicle. I was asked the other day at work why I have such a large vehicle... I replied initially and honestly "I want it because I like it and everything it offers"

A colleague has a wife, a son, 2 large dogs and is into several hobbies that require him to lug various amounts of kit about with him, he has a 4x4 (not a Landrover) that is going to fail to conform to the LEZ levels and is costing increasing amounts to run...He cannot change his car at the drop of a hat because the government thinks it'd be a good idea for him to do so !!!!! Get a smaller vehicle and change his life ....??? Where is the freedom of choice in that...??????

Edited to add the following posted in the car tax thread.....

For those unfortunates that have to drive in to the LEZ in London..........

I might be missing something here but ....

2001 cut off for lower tax band.....

2001 cut off for LEZ compliant vehicles........

Change your model of choice to get through the LEZ (it's quite extensive when you look !!) in 2010, but end up paying the higher tax band......

DON'T change your vehicle to keep lower tax....pay £100 + a day to get through the LEZ in 2010....???????

I may be reading it wrong of course!!

[q-rover]

You makes your choice and pays the price.

A people get the politicians they deserve.

If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.

[Ivan]

If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito

Ivan

[FridgeFreezer]

MarkieB - Who do you nuke when there's no oil left? Unfortunate though it is, people need to be made to think about the amount of oil they use, regardless of any environmental issues. Plain and simple it's going to run out. The only real way to make the masses think twice about driving to the shops or getting on a flight is to make it expensive.

Simon's post is interesting, back-yard fuel production / energy generation seems to be on the rise and wood gas is certainly more sustainable than petrol, plus you can burn it in a normal petrol engine. Ideal for those of us who don't want to lose the V8 burble.

[MarkieB]

MarkieB - Who do you nuke when there's no oil left?

No, definitely, nuking people is mainly more emotive than practical: similar to making them choke on the money they've been stealing from you..

you want to hear a really practical suggestion? How would we try to make an electric Land Rover? Is it feasible for such a heavy vehicle? Store the power underneath, replace the transmission with 4 individual motors, etc; although it's more of a job for an engineer than an enthusiast..

were it not for the fact I'm trying to earn money to afford spiralling fuel prices that I consider a kind of protection money as keeping the Land Rover is the most effective way of keeping my family safe from dangerous drivers, I would try to build one myself..

cheers

[Guest WALFY]

MarkieB - Who do you nuke when there's no oil left? Unfortunate though it is, people need to be made to think about the amount of oil they use, regardless of any environmental issues. Plain and simple it's going to run out. The only real way to make the masses think twice about driving to the shops or getting on a flight is to make it expensive.

Simon's post is interesting, back-yard fuel production / energy generation seems to be on the rise and wood gas is certainly more sustainable than petrol, plus you can burn it in a normal petrol engine. Ideal for those of us who don't want to lose the V8 burble.

Says the man who drives a big V8 to Russia and back . A nice diesel would of done the job just as well.

[uazvet]

Says the man who drives a big V8 to Russia and back . A nice diesel would of done the job just as well.

It costs me 40quid to fill up my V8 here in Russia - the aircon is never switched off in the summer, and during the winter I leave the engine running overnight just so I can have the luxury of jumping into an nice warm car in the morning

[FridgeFreezer]

Says the man who drives a big V8 to Russia and back . A nice diesel would of done the job just as well.

Until I came to a hill, yes.

I have to keep up with Jez on route to stage, carry a ton of gear, and be able to tow the race car on a trailer. Also, potentially, go into stage to tow him out if things went really badly. A TDi would've managed a couple of those and used a little less fuel, but I definitely would've missed the ferry home.

[Guest noggy]

well my commute to work is 0 miles so i save lots of fuel there,

but im thinking of buying a cheap corsa or something to drive aswell as the 90, with the mile i will do in the next year, it would pay for the corsa 4 times in the fuel i saved from not using the 90!

[the_mouse_man]

well my commute to work is 0 miles so i save lots of fuel there,

but im thinking of buying a cheap corsa or something to drive aswell as the 90, with the mile i will do in the next year, it would pay for the corsa 4 times in the fuel i saved from not using the 90!

Are you sure about that??

2 cars = 2 insurances, 2 MOT's, 2 road taxes plus the cost of buying the additional vehicle, is the difference in MPG really that great, reckon a 200tdi should do around 25-30 mpg, a 1.2 Corsa 35-40 mpg, I haven't done the sums but if you are going to buy an additional vehicle I certainly would. Plus ... think about your cred :o - mind you the Corsa is a great car innit....... ;)

[dreadnought110]

Are you sure about that??

2 cars = 2 insurances, 2 MOT's, 2 road taxes plus the cost of buying the additional vehicle, is the difference in MPG really that great, reckon a 200tdi should do around 25-30 mpg, a 1.2 Corsa 35-40 mpg, I haven't done the sums but if you are going to buy an additional vehicle I certainly would. Plus ... think about your cred :o - mind you the Corsa is a great car innit....... ;)

Ahh now regarding this and a load of wheeling and dealing i bought me Bedford rascal the insurance is only £130 road tax £120 cost of buying £0 running do all my own maintanence £0 ish mpg in comparison to the 110 21mpg rascal 40+mpg 22mile round trip to work every day saving 1 gallon of diesel unleaded is cheaper do the maths it adds up somewhat!!

[simonr]

you want to hear a really practical suggestion? How would we try to make an electric Land Rover? Is it feasible for such a heavy vehicle? Store the power underneath, replace the transmission with 4 individual motors, etc; although it's more of a job for an engineer than an enthusiast..

I have thought a lot about this. Nobody has produced an off-road capable eleccy vehicle to my knowledge.

I'm not totally sure the technology is there yet. To make something good and efficient, I think it needs hub motors (motor built in to wheel hub) ideally with direct drive (no transmission loss). One option might be to mount the motor in the middle of a planetary box as the sun gear. The rim forms the ring gear then use two clutches to either connect the planet gear ring to the 'chassis' for low speed or to the ring gear for high speed - a two speed hub reduction where in high gear it is a direct drive from the motor to the rim. That way, you could get the torque required for off road and pulling away but also the high efficiency, high speed.

Build a chassis where the two main rails contain the batteries sitting on PTFE Rails. You could then replace a battery by pushing a new one in one end and the oldest one drops out the other - no need for heavy lifting gear. The battery containment forming the structure of the chassis saves weight. The batteries generally need cooling - and this would provide ram forced air cooling along the chassis legs.

8 batteries in each leg gives 96v in two banks, weighing about 350kg and capable of delivering about 100hp - which is a lot for eleccy. 96v keeps the currents to a minimum (under 1000A). In the past I designed a clever mechanical PWM speed controller with no electronics and minimal loss. One chap built a prototype - and it worked. That would provide a good basis for regulating the power delivery to each individual wheel. It gives the possibility of tank steer too!

One day!

Si

[dollythelw]

DARPA did Si, 6 wheeler and mega impressive capability, some kind of battlefield surveillance drone thing, it had a donkey motor for when it was feeling a little bit tired/out of range of nasty people and steamed along at a hell of a pace - I'll try and dig a link out for you

[dollythelw]

O/T but you could strap a deck chair on the top of it

[FridgeFreezer]

Do you mean

'cos if you don't, it's still cool as f...

Going back a few posts, I'd be quite interested to see a practical wood gas generator I could build in my back garden.

[110WestCape]

So the veggie oil becomes either scarse & expensive ...... just wondering how long the wood prices will remain where they are ...... or there are no trees left. These are all classic engineering solutions ...... unfortunately not sustainable.

I vote for working from home for those that have the type of jobs that allow for such .... and there are many.

In the meantime the scientists and chemical engineers will be working hard at making the likes of Hydrogen technology and sustainable energy sources more practical and efficient. The high fuel prices determines how much effort and financing is put into these next generation initiatives.

There's still plenty of crude oil available in the world, it cannot last forever but there is still plenty. It's the correct types like sweet / light crude that is becoming more expensive to explore as they have to look further and deeper for those. Then offcourse the geo-political stuff which upsets the financial markets ....... but we will not go into those here.

Until then a scooter and raincoat seems to be the next best thing for commuting shorter distances. Nuf said .....

[Turbocharger]

Wood is actually a pretty sustainable energy source, since it can be grown and logged without major land use change (whereas veg oil from rape or sunflowers directly diverts or displaces food crops on the same arable land, hence the sustainability issues).

[bill van snorkle]

Going back a few posts, I'd be quite interested to see a practical wood gas generator I could build in my back garden.

A while back I printed off about 30 pages of instructions from asite I found when Googling "Wood Gas Producer"on how to build a wood gas producer in your back yard, probably with the junk you may have lying around too. As it happens, just today I lent the instructions to a workmate who is interested in knocking up a couple of kits, one for him one for me.

I bet OPEC are quaking in their boots. I think I'll buy a couple of hundred acres of forest land and call my company WOODPECK and give em some real competition.

I believe ''Planet Mechanics" on PAY tv last week did a program on building a gas producer on a Hilux Pickup, but unfortunately I missed the show.

Bill.

[110WestCape]

I bet OPEC are quaking in their boots. I think I'll buy a couple of hundred acres of forest land and call my company WOODPECK and give em some real competition.

I believe ''Planet Mechanics" on PAY tv last week did a program on building a gas producer on a Hilux Pickup, but unfortunately I missed the show.

Yep they did. IIRC they battled like hell to get it started but it eventually ran ..... wasn't the prettiest setup and did not run smoothly but it moved the Hilux in the end.

[JimAttrill]

Years ago I was a model aeroplane fan, using small diesels as they were cheaper to use than glow motors. I have just seen a demo of a model helicopter and was completely gobsmacked by the power of the electrical brushless motor. I don't know much about electrics but these Lithium Polymer batteries seem to have oodles of power, and don't seem to weigh much, not like the lead acid batteries used in cars. I suppose it would cost about a zillion bucks (not Zimbabwean ones) to get enough batteries to power a car though.

I do know you can rewind old CD drive motors for use in model aeroplanes, for the cheapskate option, though how they could power a car I have no idea.

[110WestCape]

Li-Po batteries are great but they do not like temperature variations too much. There have been some recalls due to Li-Po induced fires during charging. Like any other Li-Po batteries come with various C ratings i.e. the discharge rate required. For a model helicopter you would require a battery to supply a discharge burst or high C rating ..... also means it loses it's charge faster. There are some advanced electric brushless motors on the market.

Not sure if Li-Po's will meet safety requirements to be used in cars yet.

[simonr]

Right, several things to add!

Although woodgas is called woodgas, perhaps it should be called 'anything that burns' - gas. Paper, plastic bags, old shoes, pasta, hair - you name it, it works just as well.

None of the people using woodgas successfully are suggesting deforestation - but burning difficult to recycle rubbish is to everyones benefit.

Li ion battery technology is only just there. Li-Po, not quite for high current apps. If I were to build such a vehicle, I'd use good old wet-cell lead acid. You can achieve reasonable power density and performance at pretty low cost.

Likewise, brushless DC is about the best motor technology - but expensive and the power is only just getting close to regular DC motors as commercial units. I think, again in terms of bang for your buck, series wound (essentially winch motors) take a lot of beating.

Regenerative braking and control is more difficult with series wound motors - but not impossible. I would envisage making a pod that attaches to the rear of the vehicle with a woodgas engine and transmission built in. When you want to drive on the road for long distances, you attach it to the back of your truck and let it push you as well as charging the batteries. When you get to a site you detach it, chain it to a tree and carry on with eleccy drive. Round town or when you want performance you use whichever or both as suits.

It is possible to make woodgas run smoothly - but you need to adjust the mixture on the fly because the amount of gas and the concentration is a bit variable. A Lambda sensor in the inlet could probably achieve that automatically. Megasquirt could probably do it natively.

Si